E10: Empowering Patients Through Trust and Communication with Chris Johnson

Jimmy (00:02.132)
All right. One second. What is that? Did you get something pop up on there?

Chris Johnson (00:07.855)
no, just as we’re recording.

Jimmy (00:08.334)
No. All right. Well, we’re all. All right, Chris, welcome to the Physio Insights podcast. Good to have you.

Chris Johnson (00:16.061)
Yeah, thanks Jimmy. I’m excited to see you guys start up a podcast and you you’ve had some great guests thus far and you know it’s always a privilege to be able to talk to you and compare notes.

Jimmy (00:28.672)
Awesome. Yeah. Well, you were high on the list of guests we wanted to get on ASAP. I guess, yeah, real quick. I don’t know if you remember, you were, I was in PT school and I was the nerdy PT student who was always like taking Con Ed courses during PT school and following people like you. And this was 2011 or something. Do you remember how we first met? man.

Chris Johnson (00:54.919)
I don’t know. I would love for you to refresh.

Jimmy (00:58.35)
All right, so I was sitting at a coffee shop. I should have been studying, but I was reading Chris Johnson PT’s blog post. And you had posted something about your subjective exam, or maybe it was like your intake form and like questions that you ask. And yeah, this was a long time ago and I’m a student, don’t know much. And there was something on there. I have no idea what it was, but.

Chris Johnson (01:06.963)
here we go, yeah.

Chris Johnson (01:18.112)
Mm-hmm.

Jimmy (01:24.814)
I responded to the blog, like posted a question and said, Hey, why do you ask that question? And there was a place for me to put my phone number and I put my phone number in there. And within 10 minutes, my phone starts ringing. And you’re like, Hey, this is Chris Johnson. Is this Jimmy? I was like, yeah, what is going on here? But yeah, you were kind enough back then to pick up the phone and

Chris Johnson (01:39.276)
Ha! Yeah.

Jimmy (01:52.206)
answer the question that a student across the country was asking you. So it was pretty awesome and I think that sparked off like a friendship from from then. Yeah.

Chris Johnson (02:04.053)
Yeah. Don’t go advertising that Jimmy people are going to have that expectation now. And yeah, yeah, that’s awesome. I don’t I don’t recall that that reflects just the chaos that I was going through because that was probably right before I started preparing to move out to the West Coast, you know, so it was like a very busy time in my practice, but

Jimmy (02:09.292)
Ha ha.

Chris Johnson (02:29.311)
Yeah, I always would carve out time. If people took the time to read something that I wrote, and especially if they dropped their phone number, a lot of times it’s just easier to pick up the phone and have a chat. So, yeah.

Jimmy (02:40.994)
Yeah, yep. But yeah, that was awesome. And I think I’ve followed your stuff since then. And it’s been really interesting to see kind of you evolve from these silent exercise videos to courses and now, yeah, mentorship, all the stuff that you got your hands in. So along those lines, yeah, can you, maybe we can start with you just filling the audience in on.

your PT philosophy and how that has evolved over the course of your career.

Chris Johnson (03:15.113)
Yeah, for sure. And I would say that when I first came, I was very spoiled and I sort of somehow, you know, I don’t even know how to explain it. I somehow got involved with this really incredible group of people when I was at University of Delaware. So I started off just as an open major when I was an undergrad, transferred to Boston College thinking, you know, hey, going to

finance and management information systems, try and make a bunch of money and life will be good. And I got up to Boston College and it’s a great school academically. But I realized that I was sitting in a financial accounting class one fall. I’m thinking no way in hell is this what I’m gonna be doing the rest of my life. And it just hit me like a ton of bricks and.

you know, I made the decision to transfer back to the University of Delaware. And, you know, my older brother was sort of an impetus for nudging me to go to BC. But I was also dealing with a shoulder injury that ultimately required surgery. So, you know, I was in rehab at that time and I was always fascinated by the rehab process. I had sustained a couple injuries from sort of, you know, exceeding my capacity as a young athlete.

And I always found it just fascinating that PT got me back not only to sport but at a higher level and I also learned a lot about about myself So I think that was my calling and then once I got back to Delaware I didn’t even know they had a PT program so I just started flipping through one of the the school bulletins and you know it dawned on me they did have a PT program and I was looking at some of the research that

some of the faculty were doing and I just walked over to McKinley Lab, which is where their PT program was housed at the time. It’s since moved to the southern part of the campus. And I just started knocking on doors and Lynn Snyder-Mackler basically said, I’d love to have you as part of my research team. And that kicked it all off. And where I’m going with this is, so I spent…

Chris Johnson (05:26.816)
close to five years in her lab between undergrad and grad, and then I was an assistant to Dr. Axe, who was an orthopedic surgeon. So, you I would get 20 to 30 hours of rounding with him going room to room, and I did that for three years. So I came out of school and I was very overconfident. I’m like, I have this all figured out. You know, I’ve trained with the best people. You know, Delaware’s orthopedic program was exceptional. And

you know, I thought I could just swoop in when I got to NISMAT and just start fixing everyone’s issues, right, without really understanding their situation. And I’ve always, you know, prioritized relationships. You spoke to that from the outset, but, you know, I would say that over time, you know, rather than going into these clinical interactions where there’s a little bit of a hierarchy where I’m this quote unquote expert,

and someone’s coming to me to fix their problems, that I look at this much more as when I connect in consultation with people that we’re two equals, right? And I wanna do away with any hierarchy whatsoever, right?

Jimmy (06:39.554)
Was that true fresh out of school?

Chris Johnson (06:42.692)
No, I always would spend time and I was good at listening. I will say that I feel like that I did well. But I still thought that I was this operator, if you will, more than an interactor. I was doing things.

Jimmy (06:46.829)
Yeah.

Jimmy (06:56.396)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, do you remember, remember there was a big post back, maybe the Soma Simple group kind of talked about that. Do remember that? Yeah. Because that was when I was, yes. And that was when I was first graduating PT school. And that hit home to me as well. that you, especially in most outpatient settings where you get the patients coming to you with that expectation of you as a fixer.

Chris Johnson (07:05.376)
For sure. Yeah, Jason Silvernail. Yeah.

Chris Johnson (07:25.087)
Yep.

Jimmy (07:25.164)
and it puts so much pressure on you and it’s hard to get out of it.

Chris Johnson (07:30.537)
Yeah, so I would say that over time that’s really, I think deep down I knew that probably wasn’t the way to go. But I think you wanna sort of flex and you have an inflated view of yourself and you’re really what you bring to the table. So now it’s like, I know people really have the ability to take ownership of their situation. They’re not fragile.

they’re not dependent. can easily create a dependency, as a clinician that you have to be careful of. But, you know, I would say that I’m not, you know, and I love this phrase, like this worried hand holder. Like when someone comes in, you know, they’re alive, they have a pulse, you know, they’re going to adapt if, you know, we create the right environment, but to really challenge them to.

Jimmy (08:02.328)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Johnson (08:25.944)
know, for ease of explanation, own their shit, right? And I think everyone’s capable of doing that. And I also am pretty philosophical about this stuff nowadays because I know that if I can get people to trust in themselves through this physical therapy process, that I’ve seen this time and again, it has this ripple effect. So they get on the other side of this injury and they’re like, wow, I was able to do this. And they,

Jimmy (08:29.006)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Johnson (08:55.206)
get reacquainted or discover this newfound confidence in themselves. And you sort of see them start to blossom in other areas of life. you know, there’s some great, great people out there who discuss coaching and they talk about how you’re touching a leaf, you know, which is at the end of a branch on a tree. But when you touch that leaf, you’re affecting the branch to the tree trunk all the way down to the roots.

And I think that when we are working with someone, not only are we helping them, but if that person starts to blossom, I think that can be transformational in a society. And that’s why I take every clinical interaction very serious. So.

Jimmy (09:36.268)
Yeah.

Jimmy (09:41.742)
Yeah, and so you brought up this idea of instilling trust in the patient, getting the patient to trust themselves or trust their body again. There’s a saying I often say with patients is trust is lost in buckets and gained in drops, right? And you’re presented with this injury, all of sudden you lose trust in that body part, you lose trust in yourself and your ability to train and

Chris Johnson (09:52.127)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (09:59.623)
thousand percent.

Jimmy (10:10.964)
depending on where you are, like how chronic of a condition or what’s going on. Sometimes I find that is the hardest thing of patient care is getting them to trust their body again. had a patient yesterday ask me who’s going through a very tough time with an injury, but she’s just lost all trust in her body. And literally it was one of the exercises she had one exercise to do, which was just a leg extension. And she asked, how do I know if I’m doing it right? How do I make sure I’m doing it right?

Like she doesn’t even trust herself to do a leg extension correctly. So like, yeah, do you have, do you have strategies to help with this? Like, what do you think?

Chris Johnson (10:52.756)
Yeah, I I often without trying to shift the focus to me, know, just stuff as simple as like I share my story in my about section on my website. And I think that that is oftentimes a talking point where people know that I’ve been sort of in deep dark places myself as an athlete as well as a person. And I think that that, you know,

makes me a little bit more relatable and you know they also know that hey if he was able to do it and he had some of these like pretty involved orthopedic conditions that you know maybe I can do this too. And that’s you know a lot of the silent videos I mean it was always like show me don’t tell me right so just to say hey here’s an exercise but you know I think that requires really being in the moment with that person.

and making sure that you’re not distracted. And I think that’s one of the challenges that certain people who are in busy outpatient settings, if you’re running around going from one patient to the next, it creates this low level of distress or anxiety that becomes palpable and people pick that up. But yeah, I think it really depends on the person in their situation. But you also have these sound bites like, hey,

Rule number one, load the tissue with the issue. That our nervous systems are primed and get better through repetition. don’t worry about that first repetition. It may be a little bit, you know, perhaps it’s uncomfortable. Maybe it’s not perfect in terms of a form or technique, but through repeated exposures, that you’re gonna get better at this and your body’s gonna adapt. So.

Jimmy (12:40.032)
Yeah. So going back to like your philosophy with rehab and how it’s evolved, it sounds like communication, building rapport is kind of like at the foundation of your practice. that right?

Chris Johnson (12:52.618)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think the first thing that has to happen is people need to feel seen and heard. Because if you don’t start there, I think everything else takes a backseat. And that person’s not gonna trust you, they may not buy into what you’re doing. And I think a lot of people who have been a part of the medical system almost feel like they’ve been dismissed or someone’s so quick to jump in to render some treatment.

or intervention. And this doesn’t mean you need to spend an hour on the subjective, but make sure that you let that person voice some of their complaints or frustrations. And then I think you can start locking arms. And I think people, I know when I was younger, I would always jump to try and collect all this objective data and information. So I had this rosy soap note, and that’s a bunch of BS.

Jimmy (13:49.964)
Yeah.

Yeah, so giving them the place or the time to speak. I think I was going through Nathan Carlson’s course and he talked about this really resonated with me. Like in PT school, I remember specifically going through like the subject of exam, like skills, building them and the teachers teaching you to rein people in when they start going off on tangents.

And Nathan had a point where he’s like, they’re very rarely are there actually tangents. like you’re always picking up something valuable from those.

Chris Johnson (14:26.944)
Sure, yeah, and I think that’s just creating a safe environment and also being curious about what that person’s saying, not sort of like, because I think people sense if you’re trying to rein them in.

You know, and that just will create a disconnect from a therapeutic alliance standpoint. So yeah, let people talk and you never know where that could end up. You may find out something that really impacts, you know, maybe the need to make a referral. I’ve had a couple instances where I’m like actually concerned about, know, there potentially being an abuse situation. And if you don’t let people, you know, take that conversation where it ends up going, you may completely miss that.

Jimmy (14:43.053)
Yeah.

Jimmy (15:13.004)
Yeah, yeah. And so I think like I’m also going through your course and you start your course with this lecture on, yeah, therapeutic alliance, motivational interviewing and all the things we’re talking about. If we move on, like are there other pillars of your rehab that you think we should, that all of us should be aware of and make sure we’re doing?

Chris Johnson (15:39.092)
Yeah, I think that one of the things that I see clinicians have a tough time with is really trusting their gut or their intuition or their hunch. And I think that, you you get that intuition from

blending hard data with soft data, if you will. And I think you have to be careful of making assumptions. So I had an athlete that, and this is outside of physical therapy, this is more an athlete I’m coaching, which is you’re operating in a different capacity. But she, I’ve had this hunch that like something was off. in my mind, I thought it pertained to fueling like,

you know, just started getting a sense like why she’s doing these, these challenging training sessions and she’s always reporting that they didn’t go well and she’s sort of tired and lethargic. I’m thinking like, okay, I’m seeing the training session, you know, seeing her comments and I’m like, you know, there’s a fuel in consideration here.

And I also think that there’s some stuff in terms of her life and her ecosystem that, you know, I definitely have formed some thoughts on, but those are assumptions and you don’t bring those to the table. But I just engaged her and, and look, I could be wrong a lot of the times. And I think this opens up dialogue, but I said, I have this hunter instinct that just we’re missing something here. Am I right? And she’s like, it’s funny you mentioned that.

Jimmy (17:02.37)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (17:19.072)
because there’s a lot of stuff that I feel like we should discuss or get into that I haven’t been forthright with. And that just opens up, there’s the opportunity right there. So, go ahead.

Jimmy (17:30.924)
Yeah, and so you feel like, or what do you think? Do you think most of us are too afraid to trust our instincts and like, we’re just not, we’re not gonna open up, yeah. I think.

Chris Johnson (17:41.108)
Yes.

Yeah, and I think that don’t bring assumptions to the table. So I’ve had people that I’ve consulted from a physical therapy standpoint, and I say, hey, thanks for giving me a lens and the moving parts, but I still feel like there’s something that I’m not appreciating or I don’t feel like I have a grasp of. Is there anything else going on that you think ties into this situation? And they’re like, you know what?

Jimmy (17:48.942)
.

Chris Johnson (18:09.043)
this asshole boss at work and all they do is undermine my efforts and I’ve never dealt with this and you know I feel like they’re just getting in the way of me advancing in this company and I just it racks my brain I’m thinking that’s it you know like that’s really important and that may be the first time that they’ve ever actually disclosed that to someone because maybe they’re a private person so

Jimmy (18:11.17)
Hmm.

Jimmy (18:25.997)
Yeah.

Jimmy (18:34.07)
Yeah, yeah, and so this is like your well, so I guess what do do with that information when you get it?

Chris Johnson (18:42.047)
I just try to say what’s a bigger picture here? And I think that it first just starts with acknowledgement for them to actually verbalize exactly what they’re thinking because otherwise those thoughts fester and I firmly believe a lot of stuff like that can start manifesting.

in the form of MSK complaints. And that’s not a stretch. I lived in New York City. I’ve seen some weird, wild, wacky stuff. But if you get people talking about it, I think that becomes therapeutic in many ways.

Jimmy (19:09.006)
Sure. Yeah.

Jimmy (19:20.076)
Yeah, it makes me think of a woman I’ve been consulting recently. She works in tech, super busy job, chronic knee condition that’s just been in and out of different doctors, seen all the specialists, nobody’s found anything wrong with her. And one of our last calls, she just broke down crying about how stressful her work situation has been, how she hates it.

She’s trying to get out, but her husband just left his job and they’re relying on her income for the past six months. So she’s under all of this pressure. She’s lost her outlet of running and it’s, it’s surely it’s contributing in some way. And I think you’re right. It’s like just getting her to open up. Like she said, like you’re the first person I’ve talked to about this. Like, but it puts you in an interesting position though, cause we are at the end of the day, we are physical therapists, not psychologists. And it’s like,

Chris Johnson (20:02.526)
Yeah.

Jimmy (20:16.302)
you’re in this gray zone at times, how should we handle that?

Chris Johnson (20:23.165)
Look, if you’re dealing with humans, you’re dealing with emotions. And I think that, you you’re not trying to, you know, make some diagnosis, but you’re just trying to say, what are the contributing factors to this person’s situation? And maybe that opens up the discussion to say, you know, have you ever thought about discussing this with a counselor, psychologist, psychiatrist? But I think that

you know, don’t shy away from discussing, you know, or letting people share those emotions. Because that’s part of it, you know, yeah, it’s physical therapy. But, you know, if you’re working with humans, no matter what field you’re in, you’re dealing with emotions on some level. So.

Jimmy (21:10.71)
Yeah, but I feel like a lot of PTs are afraid to because you feel like you’re overstepping in a way, even though, like you said, you’re not diagnosing and you’re not often you’re not even offering a recommendation. You’re just listen.

Chris Johnson (21:23.379)
Yeah, and it’s funny how therapeutic that can be.

Jimmy (21:27.65)
Yeah, yeah. And then it makes me think of, what are your thoughts on, this is kind of along the same lines, but like patients, like this patient I’m describing, she’s also somebody who is grasping so tightly to a successful outcome. Like that’s all she’s thinking about. And I see a lot of times when I have those patients, those are the ones that have the hardest time getting back.

They’re like holding, they’re trying so hard to do everything perfectly, following all your instructions exactly right, and maybe overdoing it because they’re so committed like most runners are. And it seems like a lot of times those people, they’re so caught up in the outcome that they’re just not doing well. Like have you seen that as well?

Chris Johnson (22:20.455)
Yeah, for sure, and you start to have concerns about perfectionist tendencies. But I think that one of our roles is self-discovery, asking people questions that no one else has posed to them. So they start to conjure up their own thoughts, perspectives, and solutions, because that’s empowering to me.

Jimmy (22:43.586)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (22:46.607)
So, you know, I, I think that with an out like, yeah, as a consultant to a lot of people, they hire me because, you know, they know that I have some degree of expertise and experience and have helped other people navigate this with success. So we are focused, you know, on a particular outcome. And oftentimes once they reach that goal or outcome, you know, they move on great, you know, but I think that if you’re engaging with a patient,

Jimmy (22:46.914)
Yeah, the.

Jimmy (23:10.67)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Johnson (23:16.051)
and it’s more, you’re mapping out a plan of care that that’s a little bit of a different beast, but you know, I always say F outcomes, you know, I know it’s my goal is for people to have self discovery along that way and to have aha moments.

Jimmy (23:32.514)
Yeah. And so for that self-discovery, are you just trying to engage them more? Like ask them, what do you think we should do in this situation? Or how are you doing that?

Chris Johnson (23:47.646)
Yeah, you know, and sometimes they may say, well, what do you think? And I’ll say, well, you know, I can share my suggestions with you. But I also have zero expectations that someone follows my suggestions. If they follow them to the T, I’m actually a little bit concerned because I think that, you know, that starts to basically almost fall into perfectionist tendencies and making sure we do everything to the T.

Jimmy (24:04.952)
Yeah.

Jimmy (24:12.78)
Yeah, it reminds me of when I used to see a lot more, like when I worked in a traditional clinic and I would see a lot more post-op total knees, for instance. And the ones that ended up needing like manipulations under anesthesia, they were always the type A person who was just trying so hard, doing everything, doing the exercises three times a day. Those are the ones.

It was hard because those were the ones I was seeing that were getting stiff, tight, and they needed a manipulation. It wasn’t the one that was sitting on the couch chilling, relaxing, watching Netflix.

Chris Johnson (24:42.6)
Agreed.

Chris Johnson (24:48.403)
Yeah, yeah, there’s sort of this low level almost anxiety about worried that they’re not gonna have this perfect outcome. I’ve seen that pattern too for sure.

Jimmy (25:00.46)
Yeah, So then yeah, like continuing with your philosophy evolving things like I’m just curious because I don’t really know this. We haven’t spoke on this before, but interventions that you that you used to do that you don’t do, like what does that look like?

Chris Johnson (25:21.245)
Yeah, I would say that I’ve become much more hands off. So, you I used to do a lot more work at the level of say the lumbar spine, you know, I would get into muscle energy techniques, you know, I was very fascinated by a lot of, you know, the stuff that say,

positional diagnosis early on in my career. You I thought there were certain therapists who had these magic hands. And, you know, I think that that’s really fallen by the wayside. Right now, you know, when I connect with people, it’s like, okay.

you know, let’s clearly define point A, where we are now, understand where that person’s coming from in terms of their past medical history, social history, athletic background, and take the time to, you know, ask some questions so I have a good appreciation of the backdrop of life. So, and then from there, just being, you know, calculated with my loading programs and taking a little bit more of a minimalist approach or prisoner’s dilemma approach, you know, as Dan John would say.

yeah, so.

Jimmy (26:32.11)
It’s funny you bring Dan up because I was gonna, sorry to interrupt, I was gonna ask about that because I recently read Interventions and I know he was big on that, that which you just brought up, which is figuring out where the heck this person is right now because so often it’s like we think we’re doing it but maybe like are you really like understanding where they are right now? But yeah, sorry to interject, keep going.

Chris Johnson (26:39.742)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (26:49.225)
Yep.

Chris Johnson (26:59.569)
Well, because I think if you don’t identify where point A is, and I talk about that in the course, that’s a whole idea behind your clinical examination and the physical performance test. Does this person have a knee effusion? Can they do a lateral step down? Because, you know, that’s going to ultimately dictate the crux of your plan of care, right? And I think that people don’t clearly identify point A, and then they just start throwing spaghetti against the wall and seeing what sticks.

You know, and I think with lower limb tendinopathy and bone stress injuries, need to pretty, you need to be not perfect, but you need to be calculated and make sure you have some semblance of what point is.

Jimmy (27:41.752)
Yeah. then, what you’re saying is you’ve gravitated away from kind of more hands-on techniques evolving to this load the, like loading program it sounds like, understanding where they are, having a strong understanding of how to load the tissue. What else, what else is going on?

Chris Johnson (27:55.038)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Johnson (28:05.168)
What else is going on in terms of? Well, I would say the… Go ahead.

Jimmy (28:07.374)
No, you go ahead.

Chris Johnson (28:11.089)
I would say the other thing that has really changed is I’m pretty blunt with people. Once we establish rapport, and I also think that one of my pitfalls earlier on in my career is I would make concessions. Now I’m saying there’s gotta be an accountability factor because if you’re not doing your shit, what are we doing here? This is your situation. And I think a lot of clinicians are afraid to have

some of those more blunt conversations. If you take the time to establish alliance, you don’t need to be, you know, don’t need to be rude about it. But just to say, hey, you know, we mapped out this plan of care and you you said that this is really important to you. But, you know, when I look at whether or not you’ve done these exercises, oftentimes they’re not getting done. And I’m just trying to make sense of this because you’re telling me it’s important, but your actions are inconsistent with what you’re saying. Can you help me understand that?

you know, or maybe I have this wrong. And people are like, damn, no one’s, no one’s sort of called me out before. And I think that’s really important because how does that person grow and evolve and have self discovery if they’re not going through the stuff you discussed, right? It’s like, what are we doing?

Jimmy (29:18.358)
Yeah.

Jimmy (29:30.306)
Yeah, so along those lines, are you doing that? Is this a phone call with the patient? Is this like, yeah, an email?

Chris Johnson (29:40.608)
It all depends on you know someone’s preferred communication I think that if you are going to do this in an email that you really need to take a step back before you send that email Right and just to make sure that it’s not misinterpreted Sometimes if say if it’s someone of an older generation, you know I’m probably more likely to pick up a pick up the phone and give them a call

Sometimes it could be through text or the messaging feature on the EMR. But yeah, I think that accountability is really important. My kids know this really well. And also, if I’m working with someone, if I were to consult someone and, you know, and I didn’t hold up my end of the bargain, well, again, I think that that detracts from what we’re working towards. So.

Jimmy (30:35.438)
Yeah. So do you try to lay, I guess I have a two part question, like with the plan of care that you would create with a patient or a client, whatever you want to call them, are you pretty explicit in the expectations moving forward of what you want to see get done? And how do you lay out the expectations?

Chris Johnson (30:44.296)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Johnson (30:54.929)
Yeah, so I consulted a few people in the past few days and I tend to spend more, I’m gonna point my career where I have a little bit more luxury in terms of controlling my schedule. So I’ll spend 90 minutes, sometimes two hours with a patient or client, depending on the context. And then I’ll send them a detailed email that for the next four weeks says, okay, I’m gonna have you do this strength or drill program

three times a week on non-consecutive days and I make it so there’s no excuse. They have all the information, video hyperlinks, a framework in terms of sets, reps, auto regulatory training and I send that to them. The first point of accountability is if they don’t email back and say, just wanted to say thanks for the session and let you know that I got the program.

Jimmy (31:41.603)
Yep.

Chris Johnson (31:54.098)
I message them and I say, hope you’re having a good day. I just wanted to double check, make sure my program didn’t end up in spam or trash, right? And that’s my first like tug on their shirt to say, hey, are you with me? Did you get the program? What’s up? Right? Because if they don’t, if someone sent me a program like that, I’d be like, hey, thanks so much for the time. I found this session really helpful and it’s so, it just puts me at ease to have a roadmap.

Jimmy (32:08.8)
Yep. Yeah.

Chris Johnson (32:22.355)
That would be a response that I would give if I knew someone took the time to do that. Now, again, you have to part with expectations, but that’s my first accountability check, right? And if I’m working with an athlete where I have their program in training peaks, for example, and I see a bunch of red, meaning that training session didn’t get done, I’m saying, hey, just wanted to make sure you’re okay. I see this red.

Jimmy (32:33.538)
Okay, yep.

Chris Johnson (32:52.265)
did you do the workout? That’s another just, so I am always trying to keep tabs on people because this is about behavior change and if they can’t be held accountable, then maybe we shouldn’t be working together or it’s not the right stage of change for them to really commit, right?

Jimmy (33:10.114)
Yeah.

Yep. So then, yeah, there’s that saying like how many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? One, but the light bulb needs to be ready for change. Yeah. then like, let’s, let’s like hone in. just curious on a, on a patient. So when you see a patient, what, what does a typical plan of care look

Chris Johnson (33:18.672)
Yeah, what’s the answer?

Chris Johnson (33:24.529)
Yeah, yeah, that’s great.

Chris Johnson (33:37.343)
And when you say plan of care, like what I’m mapping out for them in follow-up.

Jimmy (33:41.47)
No, I guess more like, like what is, so you see them for this, the extended eval where you spend a lot of time upfront with them, getting to hear their story, doing your objective exam, finding, establishing point A and then laying out the plan. Like, are you having them come back to you like every week? Like what does follow-ups look like? What is that session? Like how do you, yeah, what’s the plan that you’re laid out? Not just exactly what you’re doing, but like how often are you seeing them and how are you holding them accountable? How often are you doing?

Chris Johnson (34:11.932)
Yeah, so I can maybe bring up a couple different cases. So I saw a woman two days ago and she’s relatively new to running, you has a decent athletic background in terms of softball, volleyball. And, you know, she’s sort of developed an interest in basically leaning into running. And she at one point may have tripped off some hip soreness. was bilateral. It was lateral aspect.

of the hip, so no history of bone stress injuries, no risk factors that we would be concerned about. And when we connected, I said, look, you passed all these physical performance tests with flying colors. There’s no concerns I have from an MSK standpoint. And I think that she may have been worried about perhaps some throwaway comments that people made, like, your hips are off, stuff along those lines.

I took her through the objective, the table exam, I took her through the functional assessments, and I had her hop on the treadmill, and everything checked out. There’s some stuff I could really nitpick with in terms of her treadmill analysis. Maybe she’d benefit from a little bit of a nudge with her cadence or step rate.

But I said, look, you’re already you’re running. think you would benefit from maybe upping your running frequency by one day a week because she was running twice a week. And one of those was a longer run. said, don’t get too fixated on that long run. Let’s let’s maybe try and get you to three to four days a week of running on nonconsecutive days and do some strength training on the other days. And don’t worry about what anyone says about your running form right now, because I know through exposure.

that she’s gonna self-optimize. That’s what Izzy Moore showed in 2012 with recreational distance runners. So that’s one of those situations where you don’t wanna overwhelm her with data. You wanna say, look, like give her a pat on the back to say, you’re doing a lot of good. Let’s make these simple tweaks. Let’s add a walking warmup and cool down. Let’s, you know, nudge your running frequency a bit. Let’s tighten up your strength and drill work, because I thought that, you know, there was some opportunity there.

Chris Johnson (36:28.626)
And then I sent her a follow-up email and I said, hey, for the next four weeks, this is what I would think of in terms of a sensible training program for you with the drills. And why don’t we do this? If you’re going in the right direction, stay the course. If you want to reconnect in four to six weeks, maybe we can sort of tighten things up a little bit more. So I didn’t think there was any pressing need to follow up with her.

Right, was sort of to maybe bring her a little bit closer to running enlightenment in terms of best training practices, but she didn’t have an MSK complaint. It was almost like PT is, yeah, I can see why you connected with me in consultation, but you’re a young, healthy woman. Like, I don’t wanna medicalize you. And if I tell her to schedule these follow-up appointments,

Jimmy (37:18.913)
Yep.

Chris Johnson (37:22.226)
The message that I’m sending to her is that, you need to see me as an expert, you know, because I’m concerned about, you know, A, B and C. That wasn’t the case versus someone who has a bone stress injury that I consulted where I’m like, Hey, we have to put some guardrails in place. We need to be very judicious as you initiate this return to run program. I actually want to have you come back in four to six weeks because there’s some stuff with your run easy data.

Jimmy (37:32.397)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (37:51.357)
that I wanna just see how that changes with some of the work that we’re doing. And we need to be vigilant about nudging your running, but not introducing too much speed work right now. So yeah, it really depends on the person, but I generally don’t see people more than a handful of sessions at most. Most of the time it’s like two to three sessions spaced out over four to six weeks, but.

My advantage right now is I have just countless resources. I have video files of every exercise. So when I send a follow-up email, I’m basically mapping out someone’s plan for the next four weeks in a very detailed but easy to follow roadmap, right?

Jimmy (38:39.98)
Yeah. So you really lean into handing over control of the situation to them. You say, here are the tools based on what I saw, based on your diagnosis, go do this stuff. You don’t need to come back to the gym or to my clinic and have me watch you do your squats. Like you’re trying to empower them to take control, to take ownership of the situation. Do you think that’s something we do well as physical therapists or as a profession?

Chris Johnson (39:10.046)
No, I think we’re terrible at it. And I think that’s why everyone wants to cut reimbursement because they’re saying, have these freaking visits. Like people don’t need to come in. Now I am not operating in a post-operative capacity to the extent that I have previously in my career. So if someone has an ACL reconstruction, yeah, that’s different. Those first six weeks are really critical to make sure that we get full knee extension. We get the knee calmed down.

Jimmy (39:11.31)
Thank

Jimmy (39:19.181)
Yeah.

Jimmy (39:22.85)
Sure, yes.

Chris Johnson (39:37.545)
we start restoring quadriceps function, we regain range of motion, because there’s some volatility there. And same goes with post-op shoulder procedures. But I think primarily focusing on runners and triathletes, where we’re managing their situation conservatively. Yeah, and I don’t think people wanna necessarily, I’m a little bit further removed from Seattle, I’m a fee-for-service provider.

Jimmy (39:37.88)
Yep.

Jimmy (39:42.296)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Johnson (40:04.422)
I’m trying to do this in a cost effective manner without compromising what that athlete’s looking to achieve.

Jimmy (40:14.51)
Yeah, and I think like coming from my early career, it was one of my biggest frustrations. One of the last clinic positions I had, the expectations were that I saw 50 % of my patients three times a week. And I saw, I had zero post-ops on my schedule and they wanted all my patients coming in three times a week. And I felt like it waters down the profession. It gives us a bad name. People think the service is…

is like a 20 minute back rub or a band exercise. And so I think it’s a shift in the way we think about it, but we are not personal trainers. We don’t need to just sit here and count your reps. We need to empower the patient, give them the tools that they need to get themselves better and we’re their support staff. We’re riding shotgun. They’re telling us where they’re going. Would you agree? Yeah.

Chris Johnson (40:50.098)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Johnson (41:12.046)
Exactly, exactly.

Jimmy (41:14.574)
Well, yeah, just we’re going to shift gears hard here. You brought up gate analysis and looking at a runner’s gate. How has that changed? Because I know early in your career, you had instrumented treadmills. Is that right? You had access to that.

Chris Johnson (41:30.236)
Yeah, well, I mean, when I was when I was at NISMAT, we had access to a lab when I was at, you know, in Lynn’s lab at Delaware, you know, you had force plates, you had a Vicon camera system. I mean, you had all the bells and whistles. Very impractical, though, when you’re in an outpatient setting. Yeah. So.

Jimmy (41:45.004)
Yes. Yeah. So how is, how is your, the way you analyze someone’s gate or the value you place in that, like how has that evolved over time?

Chris Johnson (41:56.083)
Yeah, well, I think like many people, I didn’t always take the time to watch people run, especially like the first few years of my career. I think it’s really important to watch someone run, right? Running is a hierarchical skill. Rich Willie and Irene Davis did a nice study. Like you can strengthen the hip abductors. You can cue people with a squat and you may improve their hip abductor strength. You may improve their squat mechanics, but that doesn’t carry over to running.

Right, respect the fact that running is a hierarchical skill, which means at some point during that plan of care that you have to watch that individual run. Right, and I think that especially goes for people who are initiating a return to run program after an injury. So, you know, I do a lot.

where I’m combining a qualitative analysis, which is the S’s of treadmill analysis, strike sound, step rate, speed, surface, shoes, slope, shanks, swing, step width, right? And that’s gonna give you a pretty good lens into things. And I also love that because it’s qualitative, it’s easy to explain to people. But I also think that in certain instances that you,

you really want to get a quantitative analysis too, to make sure, as Jay Desherry always says, I don’t know if he said this on the podcast that you had him on, but you can’t see forces with the naked eye. Not even Jay, who’s probably done more treadmill analyses than anyone else in the world. So I think that you want to pick up, is there an avoidance strategy? Is there some kind of…

Jimmy (43:34.914)
Yep. Yep.

Chris Johnson (43:46.917)
asymmetry that demands exploration because they’re having unilateral lower extremity complaints. So, you know, the woman that I saw on, I guess it was Wednesday, I just took her through the S’s of treadmill analysis. She’s a newbie runner. I didn’t feel like I needed to, you know, put the run easy belt and start getting her confused or, you know, going down the rabbit hole with some of these metrics. You know, we could bump her step rate up a little bit.

But outside of that, I just said, let’s really just zoom out and as I mentioned, let’s up your running frequency a little bit, introduce these drills and go from there. The fellow who I consulted or saw in follow-up yesterday, I have not been able to do a treadmill analysis on him and he does a lot of his training on a treadmill, so it has salience. But he is…

someone who’s recovering from a sacral bone stress injury, which we know fueling is front and center. So we got him in the hands of Rebecca McConville and he started going in the right direction. He’s back running now. I need to make sure that he is not taking an avoidance strategy. And oftentimes you will not pick up on that if you just do a qualitative analysis unless someone has a marked asymmetry where they essentially are running with altered mechanics or hitching their giddy up.

Jimmy (45:13.324)
Yeah, so what you’re saying in that situation, you’re saying that visually watching this run or run, you will not see that compensation strategy, but it’s there, it’s happening, and you can use tech like RunEasy to see that.

Chris Johnson (45:13.586)
So.

Chris Johnson (45:28.678)
Yeah, and I have a great case. There is a young high schooler, he’s off to a school in the Northwest here. He’ll be running at one of the premier programs, but he was sent to me with a diagnosis of a hip flexor strand, which you and I both know and a lot of people who listen to this podcast, you know, that’s a bone stress injury and a distance runner till proven otherwise. you know, but he was running 40 to 50 miles at the time and, you know, his mom,

very sweet woman was adamant that I watch him run during that initial consultation. So before that, he couldn’t tolerate a side plank. He passed most of the physical performance tests. His single leg hopping didn’t look as explosive as it did on the non-involved side. But when I put him into a star side plank, so left-sided involvement, so he went into a side plank with the left leg down, right leg abducted, collapsed to the ground instantaneously.

So he was running, he had this vague thigh pain. He has a hockey background. He should be able to hold a side plank like that for solid 30 seconds. mean, that’s a high load functional assessment, but I’m like, there’s no way, that doesn’t make sense. I said, look, my instinct is not to put your son on the treadmill. He’s running 40 or 50 miles a week, so I’ll put him on, but I’m not gonna have him run for more than three to five minutes. So.

Jimmy (46:37.648)
yeah.

Chris Johnson (46:55.08)
Fortunately, I have that run easy belt and We put it on and you saw this huge avoidance strategy where he was not wanting to load that left lower extremity and When you summit all of that information you’re saying his nervous systems protecting he can’t directly load through that lateral hip he has vague thigh pain and He’s running more than 20 miles a week and there may be some fueling and like poor sleep hygiene

like bone stress injury, you know, got an MR, he had a grade three femoral shaft bone stress injury, but you can use a run easy to say, Hey, like, mom, look at this, you know, into the kid, like, this doesn’t make sense. part of my return to run decision-making with him. And when we finally started to clear him with when that normalized now, you may not expect, you know, once that bone stress injury heals and he’s able to directly load with the side plank.

Jimmy (47:27.394)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (47:54.239)
You may not have the data look pristine, but you shouldn’t see that same avoidance strategy. And I think this has salience if, especially if you’re working with someone following, say, a calf strain, Achilles tendonopathy, for sure if someone’s coming off of an ACL reconstruction. It’s just giving you that much more of a granular lens into what’s going on. I think postpartum, right?

These are just such great use cases. And that’s where I want that quantitative analysis.

Jimmy (48:30.22)
Yeah, and I think it can be helpful. when I first got run easy three years ago, I had a small tear in my posterior tib.

And it was one of these things where I was trying to hammer through a bunch of runs. And I thought I was like going back to you can’t see these things. I’ve like sent videos of myself running to my PT friends. No one could see anything. I put the run easy belt on and you can see this huge asymmetry left versus right in my stability. With these cases that you’re describing, it seems like we also have to be.

interpreting the data well too, because like you could see that avoidance strategy but not call it an avoidance strategy and think they just need to start loading that side harder, right? You’re like, you should like, let’s make you symmetrical. Go ahead.

Chris Johnson (49:19.006)
Yeah, well, and I think that’s where if you combine sound clinical reasoning with tech like this, that’s when you’re lethal as a clinician. To your point, if someone doesn’t have sound clinical reasoning, which, you know, it’s ever evolving, even with us, right? It’s not like we’ve arrived at this point, like, come on.

Jimmy (49:39.938)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Johnson (49:43.57)
But yeah, you wanna make sure that you do a comprehensive examination. So when you see that, you’re like, I’m seeing an avoidance strategy. That’s not just this asymmetry that we correct and that’s gonna solve this problem, right? And that’s critical, yeah.

Jimmy (49:56.322)
Yep. Yeah, first thing. Yeah, because I know part of my role with RunEasy is onboarding new users. And it’s one of the things I try to help them understand is even if the one side looks worse, we got to understand why is it worse. Do we load that side or is this what you’re saying, like an avoidance strategy? And it is fun. think like,

to add tools like this to what you’re doing to beef up your assessment. It’s not replacing, like you’re saying, it’s not replacing our qualitative assessment. It’s supporting.

Chris Johnson (50:34.653)
Exactly. And I also think that you can… Go ahead.

Jimmy (50:35.894)
And like, so I… You got it. You got it.

Chris Johnson (50:40.571)
Well, I would say I think the other beauty of this is, you you also get to see the impact of your, your queuing, right? So I use it a lot from a biofeedback standpoint where, you know, once I explained the metric to someone, I just say, Hey, just change this. I want to see what you come up with, you know, some of the ways that people may try, they may try to quiet their feet. They may try and turn their feet over a little bit faster, you know, but here’s a feedback.

Try and correct that. Do you see that red bar? I want that to go more to orange, if not yellow or green. So to me, it’s very much an alliance tool. You’re saying, hey, look at this. Let’s lean in. I think that I had a guy recently who was coming off of a tibial bone stress injury. And.

Jimmy (51:16.418)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (51:32.047)
You know, he’s a 224 marathoner, but he runs with a very low step rate. And I do think that has salience to his situation because he’s dealt with recurrent bone stress injuries. Obviously a lot of other factors at play. But when you did pull the step rate lever with him, you saw a lot of these metrics improve. And he was sort of like, wow. So if you can help people use it to have these aha moments, they’re bought in.

Jimmy (51:50.978)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Johnson (52:00.329)
So I think it’s really powerful in that regard.

Jimmy (52:00.567)
yeah.

Yeah, and I think we should probably we should try to add in like one of the graphs of what you’re referring to because it’s really cool when you see the graph, the data graph down, you’re like, here’s you running at 150 steps per minute. Here are your metrics above. And then when you hit 165, here’s how all that data changed. And it is crazy when you see that. And it’s like instant buy in from the patient.

Chris Johnson (52:16.38)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (52:29.861)
And I also think for clinicians who are listening to this, when you do go to make a change, don’t expect the data to just instantaneously improve because that person’s nervous system, they’re going through a learning process. So I’ve had a lot of clinicians say, like, hey, I upped their step rate, but the data got worse. I’m like, well, did you give them like five minutes? Yeah.

Jimmy (52:51.884)
Yeah. No, it’s funny you say that because that’s like, that’s a frequent conversation I have as well as like, we know it’s going to be less efficient initially. Sometimes like I think I’ve seen a graph you posted before where it’s like almost instantly you saw everything improve. And that’s amazing when that happens, but that’s not every time. Yeah. I was onboarding a pretty big wig in the, in the PT rehab world. And that was a question he had because he’s like,

Chris Johnson (53:05.595)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (53:08.975)
Yeah, that’s the exception of the rule. Yeah.

Jimmy (53:19.178)
it didn’t make the big change that I initially that I was expecting. I’m like, that’s not a reason not to do it. If like, cause I’m also going to rely on the subjective feedback of the patient. They say, I feel smooth. I feel like I can do this. Let’s, let’s do it. And let’s see what happens.

Chris Johnson (53:25.447)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (53:34.438)
Yeah, and very much like when I’m coaching people, you’re triangulating all this data. You’re like, okay, here’s what the run easiest thing, here’s what they’re subjectively reporting, here’s what I’m seeing from a qualitative standpoint. So I think it just gives you that much more of a refined lens into someone’s situation. And I think with footwear, the footwear industry is a minefield to me right now.

I think that you want to understand, especially with all these crazy stack heights, okay, we can sit here and pontificate on what the shoe is doing, but with a lot of the performance coaching clients that I work with, as well as post-injury, you want to see what happens to their data when they’re in different shoes. If someone’s like, I love this shoe, let’s see.

you know how it behaves under different conditions you know let’s see if you have a carbon play to chew okay well let’s look at it conversation pace and then let’s look at it threshold pace you know and i think that can help people from a performance standpoint so

Jimmy (54:37.358)
Yeah.

Jimmy (54:42.222)
Yeah, and not to come into it with any assumptions either. Because what I’ve seen is like everyone’s individual. And I was just showing somebody this data. had a guy, it didn’t matter what shoe he was wearing or what pace he was running. His score was like between 86 and 88. And it was like that even one of those was with like a vapor fly on running at race pace. Other people.

Chris Johnson (55:02.055)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (55:07.237)
Yeah, interesting.

Jimmy (55:08.906)
other people it’s like every pace is different you see a huge difference with like a plated shoe versus a non-plated shoe so it’s it’s everyone responds uniquely

Chris Johnson (55:19.933)
And I think that, you know, I’m not working with these demographics to the extent I have in the past, but, you know, my mom was out here over the summer and she had basically tripped off something with her knee moving a piece of furniture on her porch and probably had a degenerative meniscal tear that got stirred up. you know, I also wonder to what extent you can leverage this if you’re in a more general outpatient capacity.

where you’re looking at someone after a knee replacement, after say maybe they’ve had a meniscal tear, are they at risk for falls? Is there some way to determine from a risk stratification standpoint? Because I think that obviously it’s gonna pick up any lack of smoothness or jerk in the system to an extent. So I know that obviously,

I’ve gotten pigeonholed, there are people on this listening to this, the focus is on running, but I think that if you broaden your mind, that this has much greater salience than just to running.

Jimmy (56:29.678)
Yeah, and with RunEasy in particular, with the new jumping modules, opens it up to a whole new, basically any lower extremity patient that I work with, I’m going to be assessing their single leg hop, double leg hop, and getting data to show what that looks like versus just saying, yes, it looks like it lacks power. I can now actually show that it’s lacking power and show what it looks like.

But yeah, are there, yeah.

Chris Johnson (57:00.125)
Can I just expand on that too? I think there are certain people who are very quantitatively driven too. So if you’re saying like, hey, here’s the data, right? That’s gonna land with them to a much greater degree than some, like I’m pretty laissez-faire with a lot of this stuff with my own training. Like I know if I can’t like be explosive on that leg. So, but I think that if you understand someone’s mind style and how they process information that,

Jimmy (57:13.175)
Yes.

Jimmy (57:22.242)
Yeah.

Jimmy (57:28.877)
Yep.

Chris Johnson (57:29.359)
you can really leverage this stuff.

Jimmy (57:31.948)
Yeah, it’s funny. That’s like a coaching client of mine who I work with through you, very data driven. And he like, when I told him about run easy is he was like, I want to see this. Let me get it. Let me get the, me the belt. Like, cause yeah. And runners are like, we all, I’ve kind of evolved and I am now on the other side of this, but like data driven is like a big thing with most, with most runners. So it’s, it’s cool to have it as a tool for them.

Chris Johnson (57:46.747)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Johnson (58:02.045)
Yeah.

Jimmy (58:03.67)
Yeah, so moving along, last thing I wanted to ask you about though is the role that mentorship plays in physical therapy. Like, is this something you feel like is missing from the profession? Like, is it needed? I I just finished reading.

Benjamin Franklin’s biography and like hearing from that era of like apprenticeship and the journeyman and like the process that you had to go through to become a professional. And it seems like mentorship used to be something that was stressed more than it is. Yes. Do you mind speaking on that?

Chris Johnson (58:25.627)
cool. Yeah.

Chris Johnson (58:43.611)
Yeah, so I think mentorship is critical for personal development. And I always look to people who have done the thing that I’m looking to do. So if I were to go and climb Mount Everest, I’d want to be getting on the phone with NIMS Persia, for example. So I think that mentorship is critical. And I think that if we speak to

Jimmy (59:02.115)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (59:10.329)
our profession, I mean, I think that’s probably one of the benefits of going through a residency or fellowship, right? But I know that I’ve been to say fortune is a massive understatement, you know, so my mentors were first Steve Hoffman, I mean, he was whether or not he realizes this, he was the first PT that got me really thinking like this PT world is really cool.

my high school tennis coach who taught me relationships or everything. Lynn Snyder Mackler, when I was at Delaware, who really forced me to, you know, delve into the literature and, know, to, to work hard and then got to New York where I was, you know, around a really dynamic group of people between, you know, Mal McHugh, who’s a director of research, Tim Tyler, Mike Mulaney. and I was working with Dr. Axe and then I got up to,

you know, when I was in New York, I was also around this very skilled group of surgeons who, you I could walk in during any consultation. I could walk into the operating room with them so long as I scrubbed in, you know, and I’ve, I’ve also had mentors and other facets outside of the PT world, you know, so I think mentorship is critical. And you’re, you’re learning the ropes from someone who’s done it before, and they’re sort of saying, Hey,

Here’s some of the mistakes I’ve made. Here’s some pitfalls to avoid. I also think to inoculate yourself against the fear of failure. People are like, I’m sorry this endeavor that you were involved in failed. I’m like, please, no, don’t be sorry. You have no clue the learnings that I acquired through what you think of it as a failure. Your deepest learnings always come from failures. Success, yeah, pat yourself on the back.

Jimmy (01:00:48.258)
Yeah.

Jimmy (01:00:59.448)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (01:01:05.531)
Yay me, but yeah, think being able to compare notes with someone who’s a little bit, you you’re on a similar trajectory, they’re just further down the line is great.

Jimmy (01:01:17.356)
Yeah, I think being a lot of the run easy users and people I interact with are either solopreneurs, entrepreneurs with small, small businesses. it’s like, it be lonely. I think like the role of mentorship, it’s kind of like coaching, like hiring a coach when you’re an athlete. It’s something most people should be doing, but we’re not doing.

Chris Johnson (01:01:39.015)
Mm-hmm.

Jimmy (01:01:47.554)
Why do you think we’re just scared of asking for help? Why do you think people don’t get a mentor?

Chris Johnson (01:01:55.038)
That’s a good question. feel like I need to think a little bit more about that. I think that there’s a commitment phobia to an extent. think that there is obviously a time commitment. There’s an accountability factor. There are financial considerations.

Jimmy (01:02:10.179)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (01:02:17.679)
I think back to the last person that mentored me outside of our field is a woman who’s a copywriter, a brilliant copywriter, named Lisa Morelli. you have to work. And it’s another thing that you have to give attention to. But every time, I’m a very coachable person in my mind. But I came away from that. And was it cheap? No.

get a lot of value out of it, bet your ass I did. Yeah.

Jimmy (01:02:50.668)
Yeah, it’s funny. It’s like, feel personally, I’ve done mentorship with you years ago with the running your business mentorship you did. But then here I’m at a new stage in my career and it’s something I’m looking into again, but it’s man, the amount of times I, or the amount of effort I spent just dragging my feet, like coming up with reasons not to do it, when I know it’s like, it’s something that I need for the next step and.

Chris Johnson (01:02:58.524)
Mm-hmm.

Jimmy (01:03:18.722)
Yeah, it’s just funny that we put up this resistance to doing it. And there’s a lot of great options out there for even informal mentorships. Things like like your runner zone can be is like a great resource as like a little mini mentorship with you just sharing your wisdom and other people in there sharing wisdom. Yeah, anyways, I think that’s a great place to kind of put a pin in this conversation. So anything else you’d like to say?

Chris Johnson (01:03:48.488)
Well, I would just say, I default to action. So I was talking about this with my wife, Mimi, and we’re very different in that regard. She’ll really try and think some things through, and sometimes that’s a blessing and a curse. I just am like, OK, let’s roll. And I don’t overthink things. I just get into them. But I think there’s a great book that you would enjoy, and perhaps other people who are tuning in, called Managing Overthinking, which is one from the Harvard Business Review series.

Jimmy (01:04:05.485)
Yeah.

Jimmy (01:04:15.768)
Yes.

Chris Johnson (01:04:18.525)
because I do think people oftentimes perseverate and ruminate over things. And I think having a default mode of action is helpful because you’re gonna make mistakes. I think people are afraid of that and it becomes, it’s a roadblock. And I think the final thing I’d like to say about mentorship is I think it’s really important

Jimmy (01:04:41.101)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (01:04:47.013)
you know, to have someone audit you, to say, hey, here are your blind spots, and to be blunt and transparent. And, you know, I think that’s something that a lot of people shot. They’re always trying to basically massage their message. And I don’t think that’s necessarily helpful in all instances.

Jimmy (01:05:07.416)
Yeah, no, awesome. Love it. Thank you for sharing that, Chris. So yeah, to wrap up, where can people find you? Most of our listeners should know, but let’s hear it.

Chris Johnson (01:05:19.623)
Just type in Chris Johnson PT online and you’ll regret asking that question. The easiest place is my website, chrisjohnsonpt.com. That’s sort of my central hub. I’m pretty accessible on Instagram. I’m at Chris Johnson, the PT. The runner zone, which I run with Nathan Carlson. That’s another great resource. yeah, take.

Jimmy (01:05:22.637)
There you go.

Jimmy (01:05:44.074)
And you got a new course out that’s been out for a couple months now, which I would highly recommend. I’m probably halfway through it. listeners, check it out. What’s that? yeah.

Chris Johnson (01:05:51.197)
It’s a behemoth.

It’s a behemoth. Yeah. That’s that’s as I explained to people, it’s my magnum opus. That’s what I’ve learned through 25, almost 25 years of being a clinician. I started coaching when I was 12 years old, which may sound a little bit silly, but I’ve been in the trenches from that standpoint. And I also am sharing everything that I’ve learned through my injuries, surgeries, as well as coaching a bunch of people across the injury to performance spectrum.

You know, I work with people who are newbies that just have a passion for wanting to take up running or triathlon. And I help a lot of people who they put food on the table through sport where the stakes are really high and these people have commitments to sponsors. And that’s been really interesting, know, helping people navigate bone stress injuries who are like, look, if I can, I need to race.

And what are you gonna say? you know, you can’t, they’re gonna do what they want. So you need to just make sure that they’re informed of the considerations at play, unless you think that they could run the risk of having a running related injury turn into a life altering injury. Then again, you need to be blunt with them and just say, I can’t be involved with this. If that’s what you’re going to do, I have to remove myself from the equation and document it. Right. So.

Jimmy (01:07:15.713)
Sure. Yeah, there you go. Nice. All right, Chris. Well, let’s leave it there. It was great having you. Thank you so much for your time, for coming on, sharing an hour with us. Looking forward to following you more on Instagram and all the cool posts that you’re posting.

Chris Johnson (01:07:35.101)
Cool, thanks Jimmy, and regards to your family as well as the team at Run Easy. And yeah, thanks again for having me.

Jimmy (01:07:43.214)
Of course.