In this episode of the Physio Insights Podcast, Jimmy sits down with Kurt Schütte, co-founder and CEO of Runeasi, to unpack the story behind the platform and the research that shaped it. Kurt shares his journey from South Africa to Belgium, how an early interest in barefoot running and biomechanics led him into research, and why the limitations of traditional gait analysis pushed him toward wearable technology. They dive into IMUs, running injury risk, fatigue, dynamic stability, and how Runeasi evolved from a PhD project into a tool used by clinicians around the world. This episode is a must-listen for physios, rehab professionals, and anyone interested in the future of running biomechanics.
Key Notes
Runeasi started as a research project, not a business. Kurt’s PhD focused on solving real problems in running biomechanics and making movement analysis more useful outside the lab.
Traditional gait analysis had major limitations. Visual assessment and lab-based tools were often subjective, time-consuming, and difficult to standardize in clinical practice.
Wearable sensors opened the door to real-world biomechanics. Using IMUs made it possible to study runners outside the lab and capture meaningful data in a more practical way.
Pelvic motion turned out to be a key signal. Early research showed that dynamic stability, impact loading, and load absorption could reveal important patterns related to fatigue, performance, and injury risk.
Runeasi was built for clinicians first. Instead of sending raw data straight to runners, the team focused on helping physios use biomechanical data to improve clinical reasoning and rehab decisions.
Innovation works best when it solves real workflow problems. One of Kurt’s biggest lessons was that useful technology has to fit naturally into how clinicians assess, document, and treat athletes.
Full Audio Transcript
Jimmy: Welcome to the Physio Insights podcast presented by Runeasi. I'll be your host, doctor Jimmy Picard. I'm a physical therapist, running coach, and team member here at Runeasi. On this show, we have real conversations with leading experts, digging into how we recover from injuries, train smarter, and use data to better guide care. Whether you're a clinician, coach, or an athlete, we're here to explore what really matters in rehab and performance. Let's dive in. Kurt: Kurt, welcome to the Physio Insights podcast. It's a pleasure to have you on, and now you are on the other side of the mic. How's your day going? Kurt: Thanks for the welcome, Jimmy. My name is going great, thanks. I'm calling in from Belgium today. And yourself? Kurt: Very good. Yep. I'm on the other side of the ocean, so yes, in Virginia, and always a pleasure to talk to you. Before we get started, you are the co founder of Runeasi, the main sponsor of the podcast. You're the only sponsor of the podcast. For those who aren't familiar with you, can we just like start with your background? So growing up, maybe just start there. Kurt: So I'm actually South African origin. Kurt: I Kurt: was born and raised in South Africa in a beautiful little town called Stellenbosch in South Africa, which is known for, on one hand, it's wine industry. So wine farms are beautiful, but also the university is one of the strongest in Africa actually and internationally. And always had a passion for sports and running as well at the distance. So well, 1,500 to 3,000. But also on the other hand, rugby, sports like rugby. And there we played a lot of, yeah, sports, most of the time actually barefoot. Which is a little bit different to say the rest of the world because we were blessed with good weather most of the year. And I ended up studying sports science and kinesiology. Yeah, in South Africa you have two different branches of physiotherapy, so I went into that. Yeah, physiotherapy and clinical exercise therapy direction as well. But the thing that really drew me was, caught my attention should I say, the biomechanics aspect. Kurt: So growing up, it sounds like you played multiple sports. So you ran, you played some rugby, a lot of barefoot soccer, which I would say is, yeah, quite unique, at least for me coming from America where we are putting big beefy shoes from an early age, and rarely do we see do our feet see grass. So that's that's pretty awesome. And I think from getting to know you more, there is some barefoot interests in your background. Is that right? Kurt: Yeah. Yeah. I would say actually the the combination of barefoot interest and also the the barefoot running debate completely, you know, changed my career, would say, or put me on the path of biomechanics and research biomechanics and all that. And it really started when I was at Stellenbosch University. We had this research project options, and there was a few options from the list. And one of them was about understanding the biomechanics of barefoot running. And that happened to coincide with the, I don't if you ever read the book or saw the book from Christine MacDougall on Want to Run. Kurt: Yeah, of course. Kurt: And it made its way from The US to South Africa. Kurt: So help us timeline, where are, what year is this? Kurt: Somewhere around we're looking at, I think around 2010, 2011, somewhere around there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So sixteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen years ago, yeah. Kurt: Yeah. Yeah. So I was working at a running shoe store during that time, and I remember that I'd read the book, and then this was when, at least in The US, Zero Drop Shoes, the Vibram Five Fingers, all of those things were starting to gain traction and become popular. So do you mind telling us a little bit about that research that you were doing then? Kurt: Yeah, absolutely. I think one thing that triggered us at the professor at the time that suggested the topic to this whole new movement in barefoot running is coming through, but we've been doing it for decades in South Africa. Like I said, we grew up at a very high age playing barefoot of all sports. We we know that there's so many benefits to it. But there's obviously still some research lacking when it came to running as a specifically. And and so when we when we signed up for that research topic, we found out as well that there was a new technology that the university had bought. And so we were just, yeah. Unfortunately when we did test it, it turned out to be not very good for running. The fences would rubble on the ball, the calves and really, you know, it was not ready for highly dynamic activities like running. So, but we were then directed to another campus, the yeah, the medical campus in Cape Town, which had just invested in its first, I think it was first in South Africa, media motion capture laboratory, which allowed you to be basically put CyberKn on the map in terms of being able to collect some real biomechanical data. And so there was also the beep reply finger Kurt: that Kurt: came out. And there was a lot of anecdotal evidence but nothing really showing, hey if you go on the expansion program, can, this will really help or this won't help. We'll modify your biomechanics, it will change. It will change your biomechanics like Taduamara tribe in the Copper Canyons and things like that. There we had a very good opportunity to do that research. And we had some initial really strong findings, which enabled me to go to travel for research. I was able to go to American College of Sports Medicine, where I presented in a thematic session alongside Irene Davis, who is also one of the biggest proponents and co authors of some of the biggest barefoot running papers. Yeah. So that was quite inspiring and eye opening to see how we're tackling the debate. And so yeah, and that's basically, yeah, I think a combination of those factors got me into biomechanics, got me exposed to the thought leaders. Both on the academic side but also on the shoe side of things. Because one of my first presentations was in the beautiful, charming little town called Tubingen in Germany, which is the Footwear Science Symposium, where the keynote speaker was the Harvard professor Daniel Lieber van der Wer. And that's where it sparked massive debates about, you know, whether shoes are good or bad, and how, was cushioning good or bad, and what constitutes a minimalist shoe. Basically created the next, next decade of research, and I was able to ride on that wave, which is quite exciting. Kurt: That's awesome. So was all, yeah, was all this before you graduated as a physio? Kurt: This was actually in parallel. Kurt: In parallel, wow. Kurt: Yeah. Yeah yeah, so the course in South Africa is quite heavy on both practical side of things, but also they emphasize research it if of course you show a passion for it. I was basically on one foot in research and one foot in the clinical world for a couple of years, a few years. Yeah. Kurt: Yeah. So that's pretty awesome. So you have, I guess I didn't even realize this, such early experience with gait labs and even wearable sensors from way back, yeah, fifteen, sixteen years ago. And we'll get to kinda what that led to in the future. But before we get there, tell me tell the audience more about your background in physio. So you finished, like you did, you're doing this research, you're getting your degree in physio. Did you end up practicing or what did that look like? Kurt: I think my first experience was as an intern at the physical center that where we it was next to the university. So there we got exposed to lots of different types of, well, patients. But there was a huge influx, big proportion of sportsmen and women. Of course we also had other segments as well. But because we were initially situated at the foot of the mountain, we had, on the one side we had the mountain and the cross country and the trail runner. And then behind us we had the athletic stadium, so we had all the athletes training there. And then on the other side we had all the rugby stadiums. So we had like rugby players coming in with hamstring injuries and ACL tears. Know, on a weekly basis we were doing biotics testing for osteophyatic straight testing as part of their return to play protocols. And they're taking them out on the field. We had the runners coming in on the treadmill asking about their running gauge and asking, what can I fix in my running gauge because of my injuries? We had, yeah, such a diverse amount of athletes and I was very lucky to be exposed to that. And because at the same time I was doing my research, was trying to translate that into the clinical practice. While I was learning all this stuff, was learning the research and academic side, was like, yeah, so much of this yeah, is not really there in clinical practice yet or so hard to make a translation. And other parts were, yeah, were easy. So it was just a really great experience. And what I ended up doing then was just finding a passion for serving the running community. And I actually started my own little mobile physio little business. And I would go to the homes of the other runners. I would do biomechanical assessments, a posture assessment, do some maybe some of the recovery massage and some exercises, and, yeah, just help them out and pick a few specific customers or patients to work with rather than seeing a lot, you could say. Kurt: Yeah. Is that normal in South Africa? Is that normal for some for a new grad, new physio to start his own practice like that? Kurt: No. Not normally. Not at all. Kurt: Nice. Kurt: No. No. Normally, it's good. You'll find you'll find a very established practice and work there for a few years Yeah. And and learn from the best physios. Kurt: So what motivated you there? Is it like, do you have family that were entrepreneur entrepreneurs or you just wanted to strike out and do your own thing? Kurt: Yeah, just, I always had an entrepreneur itch. I wouldn't say it came from either my parents. It was just something I, I always actually wanted to go into entrepreneurship, at first, I always had, yeah, had a passion for sports, and I thought well let's, besides my dad would always say, you know, get a degree first, need to study first, and you know, I suppose I'm just not lucky that that entrepreneurship side of things eventually evolved from the passion I suppose. Yeah. Or the things that interest me. The curiosity side, yeah. Kurt: Awesome. And so back then when you, you're starting your mobile business, were you focusing on a specific patient population? Kurt: Absolutely. Very, niche. It was the, yeah, I'd say like the trail runners and the ultra runners, the endurance runners, the ones that were getting the niggles and the overuse types of injuries. Kurt: Yeah, what drew you to that? What drew you to them? Kurt: A couple of things. One was just the complexity of it compared to say an ankle sprain or a typical trauma type of injury. The clinical reasoning behind it was always way more difficult. Yeah. And hard to figure out what was the, like the root cause analysis was always something at the back of my mind. Like where is this coming from? What's the root cause? Is it compensation? Is it something else? Is it top down, bottom up? And it had these amazing little boxes, like applied boxes, where it would be applying these biomechanical principles to a clinical practice basically. And there I learned a lot about, yeah, how to do a gait analysis. And then as you start going into it, the nitty gritty you start catching yourself walking down the street and seeing other people walking or running and analyzing the running gait without realizing it. And that becomes a bit of a weird obsession to identify different gait patterns in people, right? Yeah. Quickly spirals. Yeah. Kurt: Yeah. So with your background, with the research that you mentioned in the biomechanics, and using tech at the university where you went to, Were you with your mobile business, were you starting to try to integrate tech or what did that look like? Kurt: No tech. No tech at all. There was just nothing existing at the time. Absolutely nothing. The tech was the eye. Kurt: Is that because everything was tied to a lab at that time? Kurt: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Everything was a lab, it was you know, ethically one location in the country. It's not something you can sort of, or you can't get access to besides research. It's just research only, know. I I know there's laboratories around the world that also offer services to runners to do comprehensive gait analyses but that wasn't even there yet at the time. So was a combination of visual analysis and then we had these, it's all coded kind of video cameras, handheld cameras. Kurt: So during that time was there, as you're working with patients and runners specifically, was there something that frustrated you the most as a clinician? Kurt: The most? I think there were lots of frustrations. But one was, I guess, when you're doing a game analysis and you're processing all information, you see things and you might spot an Albert flare or you might spot a hip drop or a foot strike pattern. And you note it down, and then yeah, the next time a patient comes in and do analysis, you can maybe pick up something completely different. Or one, know, start questioning yourself. Like did I really see that? Or you know, you go back to the video and then it's a bit obscure and it's not really quantifiable, so you go down a bit of the rabbit hole, okay. Let's use a two d analysis tool. At the time the university sponsored us. Garthfish license, so we used Garthfish, then there was Genovia as well. And then, yeah, I would spend most of my evenings drawing, you know, tracking angles frame by frame by frame. And it wasn't a frustration for me because I just I just I love the fact that you could be able to extract some kind of information. But at least in the beginning. And if and being able to show runners, hey, this is what your angle looks like when you let when you touch down. And you're also striking with the mid foot or the heel strike, or you are having a pelvic drop. Was exciting to be able to show them something about how they're running. But very quickly that did turn into quite frustration because the time it takes, it's just enormous amounts of time in processing and uploading the videos and then yeah, making sure that, oh no, that we put the camera at the wrong angle or we set the wrong frame rates or the runner wasn't in the right position on the treadmill. The second time they came in they were, well the first time they were on the left and now they're the right and a bit forward and a bit backwards. So it was just like very hard to get consistency and standardization. And on top of that when you had my colleague next to me also doing the game analysis, they would pick up completely different things. Yeah. Completely different things. So that realized, then you realized like, well, okay, how much of this this evidence based or science based, and how much of it is subjective, completely, you know, in a moment? And how much is, can we really take away from it concretely. Kurt: Are these issues that you're describing some of the things that pushed you to pursue a PhD? Kurt: Yeah, these are some of the issues that definitely pushed me towards a PhD. Questioning, yeah, the grey zone in the field so to speak that it was like there was so much and it still is today, but there's a lot of advancements for sure. But there was all these uncertainties about whether I'm, am I doing the right thing as a clinician? All these questions started to, sort of formulating into research questions. And that's, that pulled me more into the research world for sure. Kurt: Do you feel like back then it was more like guru based? Like you had like these leaders that like knew how to do, they had the magic eye where they could see the things that is that how it was for you? Kurt: Yes, absolutely. And I mean, I did a lot of these additional workshops and courses, I learned a lot. And everyone picks up on different features and or overly simplifies. Think that was one of the other frustrations was running biomechanics is a global coordination movement between segments and legs, upper limb and lower limb, and trunk, and hips. There's so many joints and degrees of freedom. And yeah, when you have a runner in front of you, you only have so much time to really gather information. So we, the brain filters its visual information as much as it can to find patterns that look relevant and extract features that look important and are meaningful. But then sometimes you completely miss the whole forest for that one tree. Kurt: Yeah, for sure. I recently took Rich Willey's continuing education course on running, and he had a slide in there where he, I can't remember the research group, but researchers looked at, they took trained coaches who do gait and assessment and gave them a bunch of runners to assess for like who's efficient, who's running most efficiently, and there was no agreement between any of these experts. So it's really interesting. Yeah. It's like there's a lot of subjective subjectivity there, which is where tech comes in to help clarify that, but it's hard to, like as the expert, you think you see things, you think you know what you see, and sometimes, that's what these studies point out, it's just really interesting when you see, compare experts to experts, yeah. Kurt: Yeah, absolutely. I love that study and it kinda kinda confirms what my hunch was at the time. But that's subjectivity and inter clinician variability on how to see it. Even when you get it, you think you got it right and you got it, you analyzed the right information, then it comes down to the right workflows and reporting and documenting it. You know, to what extent are you detailing it and and noting it down. And you know how it is when you when you press for time and you've got a patient in front of you, you've got lots of things to juggle, a lot of balls in the air. And then it come in next time and you're going back at your notes and you're well, when do you remember what I wrote down? And so it's like, it's also a workflows thing. It's just, you know, it's really hard to do it consistently and meticulous. Kurt: Tell us, the next step in your career was pursuing a PhD in biomechanics. Can you tell us more about the questions you went into that PhD with? Kurt: So the story behind that was, I was actually presenting a part of that research on the barefoot running at another conference in Brazil at that time. And it was at the International Society of Biomechanics. I'm representing some of the prepost changes in how some runners changed their biomechanics and changed towards more of a midfoot and the five fingers, and others had just not after six to eight weeks of continuous training. They hadn't changed anything in their running style. And during that during that conference in Clearleuven in Belgium, and I was looking for opportunities to go overseas. And I think I applied to maybe, mean, there are say a 100 laboratories in The US and in Europe, specializing in sports running biomechanics. I just knew that to expand my knowledge and to, yeah, to really become an expert in my career, I wouldn't be able to get that exposure in South Africa. I knew I had to go overseas. I knew I had to go to a new lab to learn and further my education. And I was very lucky then to get a scholarship to go to Belgium to continue my PhD. Professor Von Ranciela, who's skipping a few steps but just briefly mentioned she became the co founder of Runeasi as well. When she took me on as one of her PhD students, she said, okay, we've done a fair amount of research in the barefoot side of things. We have other opportunities here in K11 because we're working closely with the computer science department and the engineering department. And we like to explore the advent of these new technologies that are coming out for mobile sensing. For potentially being able to measure biomechanics not in the laboratory. Or would you be interested in pursuing this kind of angle topic in your PhD? Hell yeah. That sounds amazing. Yeah. So like being at the forefront of of potential new accounting technology. So I thought that was a great opportunity. Of course, that meant that, you know, in the first six months, I was having to learn how to code, write code in in MATLAB and eventually Python. But to yeah. I had to understand what's going on and we stand through them. What can we extract from this new technology, new mobile sensors that can actually one day potentially be useful outside of the lab. Kurt: And so just to be clear here, these sensors you're talking about, they're IMUs. Is that what we're talking about? And then the big differentiator here is that these are allowing you to do assessments outdoors, and you're not tied to the treadmill. Is that right? Kurt: Yeah. Well, they they're sensors that you can put them anywhere, that if you attach them to the body, they become a wearable sensor essentially. And the IMU's inertial measurement units, the listeners that aren't familiar with what an IMU stands for. So inertial measurement unit, which has a combination of sensors in it. One being an accelerometer that picks up acceleration. Another one being a gyroscope that picks up angular velocity. And another sensor being a magnetometer which picks up, yeah, the magnetic field. Not all the sensors in that IMV are relevant to measure anything, but it combines a lot of these different dentures into one device. It can be worn on the body. And because it can be worn on the body, depending on where you put it, it enables you to, yeah, to predict movement, tumor movement. Kurt: So as you're learning more about these, because I'm guessing, like, that was kinda new for you. You're used to, like, the labs that now you're having to learn a new thing, IMUs. As you started digging through data and looking at what they're capable of, what were some of the questions you started having with how you could use them with runners? Kurt: Yeah. Well, one of one of the first things was what what information is relevant. Another another question was what information is actually valid. So what concepts are we getting from traditional lab based biomechanics? And what do those concepts actually translate into something that you can get from a sensor? So yeah, validity and what brings meaning? Meaning because like I said also earlier, there's a million things you can measure on the body. But when you're talking about biomechanics, you obviously have several different branches underneath that. So you have kinematics, is movement, which is tracking, yeah, the joint angles for example. And then on the other branch you have kinetics, which is looking at forces, which is either being the ground reaction forces, it can be through the shock attenuation, it can be through joint loading, through the principle of inverse kinematics. So there's lots of different types of things you can measure in biomechanics. And you have, know, say pressure plates, looking at pronto pressures. So yeah, the first thing that we wanted to look at was, okay, well, let's put sensors everywhere all over the body and go back to the photo archive. It's quite funny because there's like sensors, picture of having a sensor attached to my forehead. Nice. Then we get the shock attenuation reaching the head. Yeah. Then we had them attached to our tibias. And at the time the sensors were still quite large and heavy. Know, they're talking about like grams. And so the only way to keep it attached to your tibia was to use double sided tape, spray on glue, extra tape. And this is now against the shimbo, right? And at the end of the run you just felt like, woah, what is that pain resonating down there? And it was because the only way to keep it attached was to really have it tied in or without. Yeah. Maybe not the best location, but yeah, that was a very well researched location for having an IMU because it, yeah, the shock begins at lower limb. So played around. We experimented a lot with sensors, what's where in the body they should go and a couple of insights came out of it was, you know, first of all, sensors are extremely noisy. They pick up on the tiniest little movement possible. They're sensing acceleration. So like you know, can just tap the acceleration, like just pick it with your, as a flicker sensor with your finger, and it'll pick up you know, 10 gs's of impact because it's super sensitive. Yeah, wow. So if that's okay, so attaching it to the body and being very careless about how you attach it can introduce a lot of noise. I mean you don't see these beautiful sine waves in your data, you start seeing more like noise, just white noise or like complete squiggles. Kurt: Yeah. Yeah. So during this phase, you're really just experimenting, trying to figure out what relevant data you can get from these and how to actually like, sounds like even just attach them so that you're eliminating some of this noise. Obviously, Runeasi became a single sensor that's mounted at the sacrum or the low back. How did you go from sensors all the way up to your forehead down to just one single sensor at the center of mass back there? Yeah. Kurt: Yeah. Yeah. Great question. I think several reasons. One was wearability, focusing on the runner themselves. You know, what do they feel comfortable wearing at the end of the day? So it doesn't help to have something that they would never use beyond a research clinic. A good example was that sidelic accelerometer I mentioned to you. We know that Kurt: I was thinking more about the forehead one. Kurt: The head one indeed was that there was almost basically no impact left to measure. So you were picking up some oscillations, some some smooth oscillations, more about, you know, how sober the runner was than how well they were running. Kurt: Yeah. I've heard you talk about this before. I guess we've talked about this where you said the body is just designed to protect the head, so we're trying to eliminate shock up there. So that was like, you could quickly say, hey. We don't need this one. We're not seeing much useful information from that. But then the but then the tibia, like, that you still see companies out there that are using those. What made you, yeah, like, ditch those and go with the sacrum? Kurt: Yeah. So so we we have specifically for the sacrum for a couple of reasons. One was that the the sensor signal was just the cleanest and highest of quality because it's attached really closely to the center of mass. And when you're looking at the center of mass as well, it opens up a lot of possibilities. To, yeah, to measure the biomechanics. So not just looking at the impact but how quickly that impact for example can travel through the body, through the legs. So you don't wanna, you basically want to evaluate how is the lower extremity functioning during running. And not just isolate to a specific lower limb segment. Because what you end up having there, yeah, you miss a lot of information about how the body is responding to that loading as well. So it's looking for essentially how can you get the most vital information, holistic information from a single device. That was part of our innovation challenge because we didn't want runners having too many sensors on the body gear. We knew that if we could validate a sensor on the sacrum or on the pelvic level, we could also get information from both the left and right steps. And if we could classify that, then it would save a lot of time and energy from also the clinician having to put on sensors while at the same time, yeah, one sensor. Kurt: So you're saying, yeah, with one sensor you can get both left and right. I guess help me, help the listeners understand here. So like, these devices are measuring acceleration like you mentioned. So if it's mounted at the foot, if it's mounted at the tibia, what what do we miss? What do we lose versus being mounted up high at the pelvis? Kurt: You're losing basically every bit of attenuation, active attenuation that's happening above that segment. So you can capture that initial shock wave. Kurt: Mhmm. Kurt: But that shock wave is gonna travel through the lower limb, through the, yeah, through the calf muscles. The calf muscles attenuate a majority of the shock. And then the quadriceps essentially contract, and you have the glutes as well. So you have basically, it's a combination of the active absorption as well as the coordination involved and how you're running as well that can influence how you absorb that impact. So it's a combination of, yeah, coordination of movement as well as how the upper limbs are also functioning. Yeah, there's injuries not only at the tibia or the foot level, there's injuries throughout the leg. So it's insightful to understand, you know, what is happening in that whole lower limb segment to say, is there some compensation happening? Of course, then you can further investigate where where might that be, but it's good to be able to capture that whole leg. Kurt: For IMU mounted at the foot or the tibia, we miss you miss everything that happens with how the body handles that that impact because it's getting attenuated throughout throughout the chain. And then you also get this added benefit of single sensor versus we need the left and a right sensor here. So that's these are the things you were kinda thinking as you're going through trying to find Kurt: Yes. Kurt: Sensor. Yeah. And then what was the process of getting this validated look looking like as you've, yeah, you settle on the single sensor, what was next? Kurt: So the lesson first started with commercially available sensors because the idea was never to build from scratch. That was Cabin Way only six to nine months after the beginning when we realized these existing sensors unfortunately shit down. What's valid enough or not reliable enough? And they went on this pile of non validated sensors. The validation process we started off with the pilots where we bring in five runners. We hook them up to the treadmill and put markers on the body and a motion capture set up. So those of you that know what a motion capture lavatory looks like, you'll know what I'm talking about. Those that are not familiar, it's basically going into a very dark aperture because there's lots of infrared cameras that are up on the ceiling that are pointing down. And they pick up how these markers on your body reflect as well as, or they pick up the infrared movements of tracking of these markers. You place these markers on all the relevant anatomical sites. And then thereafter, when you start processing the data, there's software that will help connect the dots or the markers on the body. And it basically builds an avatar of your skeleton and how you're running. So there's a lot that goes into it. That is the gold standard, that's the laboratory way of doing it. So the data collection or the whole process is really tedious. That's really important because you need to get the markers on correctly. You have to calibrate the laboratory. If you're do it on the overground, force plates you need to zero the force plates. Make sure that they're calibrated or if the force plates are in the treadmill you need to validate the oser. Calibrate those force bits as well. So there's a lot of preparation work. There's the data collection which is actually when you're recording it, it's quite quick because there's so much information that's being stored. The computers still today can't handle that amount of raw data that's being collected. So you end up only maybe reporting five to ten second maximum of a runner's running style. And this is one of the things I came across when I was doing the research and reading up on all these biomechanics study. The best running studies that were like interventions of using biomechanics. And you look at how many steps they're actually used for each participant. And it's like maximum of five running steps. Like maximum. And they're basing like retrospective injuries or prospective injuries or looking at how technique changes or efficiency based on five steps from a single runner. And that's what's so called between, yeah, of the runner. And then you start thinking, okay, all right biomechanics has a long way to go still. So we would set up all these motion capture systems. Used a Vicon at the time. And then we would, at the same time, we would initiate a recording on the IV device and if it was on the pelvis or the tibia or the head, we would synchronize that. And then afterwards we would look for and go through the data to, so if it was a commercially available sensor, let's say it outputs ground contact time or cadence, then we would extract those outcome measures from those on the device and then compare it to what we calculated from the lab. And then we would look for correlations, we would look for measurement error and based on lab we would say, this is one we will use or this isn't one we can't use because it's not so accurate. Yeah, so the short version of that story was that I think maybe five to 10 of the commercial devices we tested were not valid. And also the measurements were really, really basic. They were like the cadence and the ground contact times. Where it's a special temporal element of running which is important, but it's only one tiny piece of the puzzle of how we're running. And it can be way more exciting and relevant and meaningful information to get from it. So that's where we completely pivoted. But PhD almost like we came to a big pause grinding halt because we were like, well, if we don't have a valid sensor, we can't accomplish the main objective of going outside of the lab or towards the clinical practice to do measurements on the track or, you know, and do the fun applied research. So that's where we basically, yeah, we're back to the drawing board and brought in also the help of Tim and Jesse, are the co founders of Runeasi now. But at that time they were researching in the computer science, data science, the sports expertise in sensors, and we said, well, let's build our own algorithms and validate our own sensor. Why not? Let's go that inwards. Yeah. And that's what we did. Kurt: And that was just purely out of necessity? Kurt: Purely out of necessity, yeah, to keep my PhD dream alive. Kurt: And the whole goal was just to, yes, to complete your PhD, not to turn this into a business or anything like that, correct? Kurt: No, it was purely out of curiosity and keeping the PhD alive. And K11, they're also known for their universities, for pushing research articles. So you have two to four years to deliver deliver research. So you gotta make sure that you're on track. We'd lost say six months because of all the validation stuff and all the invalidation stuff. So we had to do a quick, you know, a quick turnaround, and that's where we started pouring our energy into development. Kurt: And so this is where Jesse and Tim, other cofounders kind of came into the mix and to help you with that process? Kurt: Yes. Yes. Jimmy: I'd like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, Runeasi. Runeasi is a running and jumping analysis tool that helps provide objective data on things like impact loading, dynamic stability, and symmetry. I've been using it in the clinic for the past three years and I love how easy it is to add to my evaluations. Not only that, but it backs up my clinical reasoning and helps me with my decision making process when I'm doing exercise prescription. So if you're a physical therapist or running coach, head on over to runeasy.ai, book a demo. If you're lucky, it will be with me. Kurt: And then tell us more about what that looked like. So this is probably I guess things get interesting. You're trying to is this where you start creating your own metrics and figure out what you want to get out of this sensor? Kurt: Yeah. I always took it from my my side of my approach was from the application. The side of things, clinical application, sports science, sports biomechanics, making sure that the whatever we get to develop is gonna be meaningful or interesting to either just to coaches or physios or runners. And so I started digging into the literature and I started realizing, hey, there's actually quite substantial evidence for this metric called dynamic stability, which has never been researched in running before, but has a lot of really interesting results in the walking gait populations. And not just in orthopedic, but in also in neurological conditions. So they would discuss it. So basically the measurement was how how well do you control your pelvis during walking. That was it. So it was looking at the side to side variability of the hips. And it turned out to be a very highly reliable marker for detecting these special populations. In Parkinson's disease, picking up asymmetries, picking up in orthopedics, in previous osteoarthritis patients in the knee and the hip, identifying. We've been really sensitive enough to pick up these precursors for these diseases. Which I thought, wow, really interesting. But walking gait, no one seems to apply that concept to running. And actually there's a lot of literature in the running about how the control of the pelvis and the hips and the trunk is really important for stabilization, for economy and efficiency, and for looking at injuries. There was newspapers looking at the compensation patterns of the lumbar pelvic area and how that relates to a top down injury hypothesis approach to how you might develop bone stress injuries in the lower limb because of your unstable pelvis. I thought that linking up those two hypotheses would be interesting to study. And that's when we started doing specifically research on that data's first metric, and collecting the data. And then, yeah, we had some really good initial correlations. I thought, okay, now it's ready to hand over to Jesse. Let's start doing some injury prediction and other. We were sending over some data from I think around fifteen, twenty subjects, and they were like, yeah, no, that's like, ran some machine learning algorithms on here and we need more data. More data? How much more data? Yeah, a lot more data. So yeah, so that started a collaboration. And at some point I was like, you know what, if you want more data, come down to the track, come down to the lab and learn how collecting this data. Because of the energy that goes into recruiting runners and scheduling them and testing them, analyzing the data, all that, all those steps as well. You know, there's a lot to appreciate in the process of before handing them a spreadsheet of the outputs. There's a lot there. So that's, I guess, where the friendship and the partnership really grew strong was the mutual respect and appreciation at cold, cold nights, collecting data in the middle of the winter to make sure we had enough data by the spring to write some research papers on about it. Tim be out there in the cold. For a computer scientist to be there in the field, you know, he, you know, he earns his badge of honor, you could say. Kurt: At this point, had you guys already worked out the kinks in the belt and getting eliminating noise from the sensor? Kurt: Yes. From a validation perspective, yes. And I'm a little surprised here to show you. Vinny, I don't know if you've ever seen this, but this is one of our earliest prototypes. Kurt: Oh my gosh. Look at that. Yes. Kurt: Look at that. I mean, it's got metal metal Kurt: This was the first, like, of the first belts. Yeah. And Kurt: so Yeah. Kurt: Yeah. Because you talked earlier about, like, yeah, how sen this is oh. From Kurt: an aesthetic eye perspective, it's not not there yet. Light years away. But from a functional perspective, yes it answered the questions because we figured out okay, have some material that's gonna be attached to the lower back or to the sacrum. It needs to be skin friendly, it needs to be sticky, so the moment it's against the body, it doesn't wobble, it sticks and moves, and moves together with the body. Kurt: Yeah, it's interesting because I think I've seen even fairly recently studies where they put IMUs in the back, like sewed them into the back of shorts. Kurt: Mhmm. Kurt: And like, there's, there has to be noise involved in that. Kurt: Absolutely. It's all noise. Yeah. It's like, you think of like the signal to noise ratio, it's like, yeah, you attach it to the shorts and you're getting 90% noise. Kurt: Yeah. So a lot lot of time went into this, like, developing kind of what became the belts that we use today. But I guess going back to, yeah, data collection, this first metric that you guys or that you decided to hone in on being dynamic stability, relating trying to relate that to injury using some other research. How yeah. So moving forward with with the development and studies. So do yeah. Do what kind of studies did you push out related to dynamic stability? Kurt: Yeah, so one of the first studies we did was in the laboratories. We said before we go outdoors, we'll do everything lab based. We had runners come in, they did a fatigue protocol, we had a leads group, we had a recreational group, and we had them running till less, till exhaustion. So you get them, you know, you incentivize them to run as much as they can possibly. And then you quantify, you know, different measures of RPE or fatigue as, you know, do you know that they really push themselves? And then you look at the data and the dynamic stability, and then we saw very, very clear, and we published this in the plus one journal. Our big publication was that we were able to identify these manifestations of fatigue at the pelvis through this dynamic stability metric that we had in the IMU divide. And that was showing up one to one was what the goal standard, the sacral marker, the center of mass movement was doing from the motion capture lab. So that was the first indication of evidence that what we're picking up from the sensor is you can be used to detect when a runner starts breaking down due to fatigue and its breakdown. Yeah. Control. Kurt: Yeah. Yeah. So that's pretty cool. And then at this point, like, I'm guessing, like, questions are popping up. You're you're coming up with more questions you wanna answer and see, how yeah. What can we get out of this IMU mounted at the center of mass? So what, yeah, what questions started popping up in your head? Kurt: Yeah, so it started from fatigue, which is fatigue in itself is a concept, is one that you could spend a whole podcast discussing, because, you know, how you define it biomechanically, neuromuscular fatigue, or you talk about it for xeroidal fatigue. So it's part of different types of new research questions. One was about running economy. So does that mean that some runners that have a worse stability or poor stability, are they obviously more any basic economic? So I said, great, let's come back to study. So I went back to South Africa. Part of my PhD was a joint PhD between the universities. So we did another study down there. And we used the exercise physiology laboratory. We hooked him up to the Cosmed EO2. We got the running economy, the BO2 max, we did lactate testing. And we found some really really cool findings which were published in the Journal of Physiology. Basically saying that runners that were able to, yeah, be more economical and also delay their lactate, yeah, curve, so to speak, a buildup, so delay that curve, also had better stability. So it was now also kind of a sense of like a, yeah, performance marker, you could say, as well amongst different types of runners. So that was really exciting. So that went a bit of the performance route, excuse me. But the main objective was always to bring it back to what can we do from fatigue to injuries. So that way, that's where we just, we did our first retrospective injury study. We had access every year to uni grads, sports science students that had to do enormous volumes of training and running and exposure to all the sports. And I think proportion of them got bone stress injuries or MTSS. And we used that as a sample of convenience to retrospectively look at, okay, but those runners that had injuries, how do they look like when you're out on the track? So we took out of the lab, you know, first outdoor applied study. And we noticed that the ones, we did a Cooper Running Training protocol. Maximal efforts, I think, you know, eight laps or 3.2 kilometers. And there we saw the same thing. The runners that had well, all runners that had fatigue, they got more instability. But the ones that had a history of these stress injuries showed a bigger deficit than breakdown. So that was really cool to see as well. So that interaction effect between the injury and the fatigue started to come to light as well. Kurt: And was this like your physio background coming into play here where you're just, you're interested in injuries with runners, so you really wanted to see, yeah, how what can we see with a sensor that we can't visually see? Yeah. Awesome. That's yeah. So that's a really cool study. And then keep yeah. Keep going. Tell us where does, like, impact magnitude, impact duration, where does that come into play here? Kurt: Yeah, so that came into play when there was also a fun debate. Maybe it was over a coffee or it was over like one of these journal club meetings with with the the team. Oh no, wait. I don't remember now. It was so the Flemish government in Belgium, so they have the Bonn province of Flanders, designed a new initiative to encourage more participation in running. So the initiative was to build these what we call, which is the finish tracks, which is based on wood chips. So they would build a track and they would load them up with these soft wood chips. And yeah, and part of the memorandum, the whole initiative behind it was to encourage participation without increasing injury prevalence. Because a belief as a government organization was that soft to surface means less injury. So that's a great question for our team, so like well maybe scientifically we can show that there's evidence for that or Jimmy: not. Interesting. Kurt: Yeah. Because they both run right outside of our department, like right next to the athletics track. So we set up an experiment where we had runners, like what's it, elite and recreational runners, run on three surfaces. So that would be like normal asphalt concrete, hard hard concrete. We had the running on an athletics track as well, which is obviously synthetic fiber. And then on this wood chip trail as well. And the hypothesis was twofold. One was, is the impact lower on this, the woodchuck trail? Because up until then we've only focused on stability, but we could also capture the impact magnitude. And then the second was the dynamic stability. So what happens maybe if you go into woodchuck trails, it might be softer, but you're more unstable. And we confirmed both of those hypotheses actually. So that the impact was lower indeed on the softer surface, on the wood chips, but there was more instability induced. It might be that, you know, depending on from a clinical takeaway from animals like that. If you have bone stress injuries or you have things that are related to impact shock that maybe running on the wood chips is a good alternative for cross training or to involve a part of that in there. But if you have maybe lumbar instability or hip issues or you know, anything that involves like, you know, lower back, chronic back pain, anything like that, that might be irritated or provoked by running on the wood chips because of the instabilities that are exacerbated by it. So it was interesting. It was an interesting kind of cue towards going towards the dynamic loading aspect, the the forces. And not just looking at stability side to side, but oh wait, now we can look at something in the vertical plane as well. Kurt: I guess I I've read that study, but I didn't know the backstory as to why you looked at those three conditions. So, yeah, that's pretty that's pretty cool. Alright. So at this point now, Runeasi had like, you guys are or is is it it's probably not called Runeasi at this point, is it? No. So you guys are just collecting, doing research, your sensor, you're looking at those are kinda like three metrics that you start looking at, stability, impact load, which is those two things, how hard, but then the time spent absorbing. And then, yeah, take us through what what happens next. Kurt: So what happens what happens next is is actually is is is beginning of more of the transition towards the commercial trajectory, you could say, because by this time we've now conducted you know, five to 10 studies. We have a long list of participants that are regularly coming back. Just participate in our studies for the next one. And they start giving us all these little requests Like hey, would you mind sending us a report of our data? I'm actually curious to know like how do I do as an individual on different running surfaces? Or how did I do when fatigue was in that I was already that bad compared to the other runners, you know benchmarks wise? And they're like, yeah, we don't really have these type of reports, but we'll compile it. So we made some graphs reports, handed to them. And they would spread out those reports. And this is part of like the kind of the seeding or the kind of the light bulb moments. Gradual entrepreneurial, ah, wait a minute. There's some value in this because they will come back and they'll say, yeah, well actually, where can we buy this? Can we buy like a running device? Or can we buy the reports from you more regularly? Yeah, I'm interested to know what happens next month when I come back. We're like, no, no, woah, woah, woah, hold on. This is just a research project. But it definitely, yeah, it started this, planted the first sheet for maybe we can offer a service or maybe we can offer a product or yeah, maybe there's ways that we can add value or make an impact directly to runners beyond the research itself. Which was to us, like to Tim and myself especially, we were thinking well that's a great way to actually make a big impact because it's not just the research that goes on to online journals or in the bookshelf library. Actually making its way into the community social impact, health implication. And then, yeah, and the questions just came more and more and more. And some PTs and videos and coaches and triathlon coaches were curious about the data, we started giving little presentations about it, the word kind of spread. And that's where we kept on going with the research arm, so that never stopped. It's not like we completely just said, let's close the tap on the research. But we kept that open wide. We had other researchers come in to do prospective studies on injuries. So what happened, you know, when you have a group of runners that are all healthy, but you you record you record them in the beginning, baseline levels, and then you kind of you look for the group of runners that end up getting injured and those that stay healthy. And why is that the case? And there we can also show them prospectively, obvious injuries in running was coming down to these parameters, again, of dynamic loading impact, the stability and all those things as well. So that kept on going, and being a deep involvement there. And we were just obsessed with collecting as much data as possible. Like that was an asset. We realized very quickly that we had this unique opportunity, access to hundreds of runners in our nearby area that were willing to run and test out all our crazy hypotheses for us. We even had one experiment where they would run and the phone would prompt them to give them their leg pain score and their RPE score, and they would have to speak back to the phone, which would be triggered by an asymmetry or by a higher impact. So it was like kind of some ideas, early ideas behind a coaching, a self coaching module, but we'd figure out very quickly. Runners hate to be disrupted and interfered with during their run. You know, so it was that arm. Then of course the entrepreneurial part of it as well, to, you know, building a business model, building a business plan, it was something that we started to put together. Kurt: Yeah. So I guess I have lots of questions here. So first one though is what made you guys obviously, Runeasi turned into the company turned into Runeasi, which is now like a tool lots of physios use and some coaches use, but it's primarily like a physio rehab tool. What went into that decision? Because you mentioned, yeah, the coaching or like maybe direct to consumer. What made you go with the physios? Kurt: I think the the biggest reason was myself having the background of the physiotherapist being presented with the data that we could really show them was like, was only the very, very, very first step of what you can do with it. And we hadn't developed any of the layers of interpretation behind it or what do you do with it? Because we have some research studies that show that these are indicative of injury. But yeah, you have a patient in front of you, what do you do? And how do you interpret it? Big, big difference. And I mean it's okay. Even a physiotherapist is gonna be struggling initially on what to do with this data. How can you put this in the hands of a runner? Like what will they do with the data? What are the actions? What are the behavioral change? At the end of the day, our mission is to make sure that the outcomes of the athletes, the patients, the runners, they're improving, right? And you can't show that, do that by just showing them numbers and values. Kurt: I don't remember when this happened, but I remember when Garmin first came out with some of these metrics with their heart rate strap, where you could look at like left and right symmetry with ground contact type, vertical oscillation, things like that, but they pushed it to us, the consumers, and like nobody I don't know who knew what to do with that data, or if anybody did anything with that data besides like at first think it was pretty cool, and then very quickly forget about it. Kurt: Yeah. And that's exactly what we wanted to avoid, that situation. And also just coincidentally, at the time, there was two or three other companies also starting something in in biomechanics and wearables, some in The US as well. We And saw them going straight for the consumers. And we said, great, let them go for that. We thought like, let's take a more conservative approach. Let's do things properly. Or let's take a scientific method, so to speak. So we thought like, let's do a validation segment by segment. Who would be the first segment that would really appreciate this information that could do the most with it? And so we thought, I'm also not just gonna throw it in their hands and say, yes, in technology, do what you want. Let's work really closely together. So we worked together with our 10 early adopter physiotherapists, sports physios, working with runners and athletes in our area. We gave them huge early adopter pricing discounts, so to speak, in exchange for feedback, feedback inputs, what's valuable, how are you using this data in a performance screening scenario? How are you using in a rehab scenario? Return to sports? Like what would add value? So when we launched it, that's the approach we went. And with the first two to three years of just building a deep understanding of what is important and what can be used in clinical settings first. And not just kind of just jump the gun and just say, we assume that this is something you can do. We interpret the data, go ahead, you know? That's what we didn't want that situation because we thought like, where's the ongoing value in that scenario for the customer? Kurt: Great, yeah. Well, I'm glad you did, because it's been like a fun tool for me to use as a clinician. But during this time as well, what was it like for you personally going from physio researcher to now, like, business owner and yeah. How what was that like? Kurt: A bit of identity change, would say. The one thing that kept me motivated or inspired was that it was in the same field. So I felt like I had this maybe a compounding knowledge to to apply to apply all this, yeah, my experience I gained into the same field. So it was more like, it felt like it was vertical growth. Physio and biomechanics and running, then the research and then entrepreneurial side, it felt very, very natural transition. It didn't feel like I was stepping outside of a massive comfort zone. Even when I had to do the sales, the sales in the first year of the company before we had, you know, Timothy and the team and you guys and help, it felt very easy to make a transition because I was just basically talking about science and talking about what the product can do. And it didn't feel like a huge business transition. So that made it a lot easier. And then we had this very fertile and supportive system at the university, the technology transfer office that allows, it's like an incubation for researchers that have entrepreneurial inspiration and they want to trans, yeah, basically translate their technology or their research into a product or a service. And they were very very helpful there. They challenged me on a lot of things. Because we were also looking for investment and funding and to this prototype into something that was actually sellable and to convert our first app interfaces into something more than just dots moving on a screen into something that was really usable and app friendly. That required investment and money. And of course, then yeah, it was going building a business plan. We offer, well we used actually one of these books here, and it's really helpful. The Business Model Canvas or Business Model Generation. And how, yeah, how there are new ways of generating. First, how do you create value? How do you deliver value? And so it's not about making money, it's about creating and delivering value. And then at exchange you can grow your business. So that was, yeah, part of it. And then we're really looking for customer segments and sports physios have the most resonating, resonating mostly with them. So yeah, that's where, yeah, it became really exciting I suppose. Kurt: Yeah. So it sounds like you kind of in a way had to like, quote, go back to school to learn more about all of this, and fortunately had some good support systems built in there at the university that which is seems like probably very helpful. Yeah. What year was that when you guys first started with those top the 10 clinics that you first reached out to? Kurt: That was 2020, yeah. Kurt: 2020, wow, yeah. Alright. So, yeah, here we are six years later, 2026. What are some of like the major milestones that you felt like you've accomplished in these past six years? Kurt: Yeah, well, I would say one of the biggest things for me is how the product just never stops evolving. So we're a product first company. That's also why we, you know, we haven't really invested heavily in marketing either, because we think like the product should speak for itself and word-of-mouth. So that's the biggest milestones for us as we look at our We look at our acquisition funnel, sales funnel, marketing funnel. Most of our sales are coming through word-of-mouth. It's adoption amongst some of the gurus that I've always looked up to, and the researchers, and the other people in the field that have, yeah, endorsed or adopted Runeasi, whether it's, you know, Janiticiary or Chris Johnson. But these guys were some of the early believers in Runeasi, and they really helped to kind of create a movement of awareness and spread the word. And then in Belgium we had Bartingen as well, who also did his PhD. He's a very renowned, renowned for ACL rehabilitation in Europe. He And also gets a lot of early feedback and he is very supportive and helped us shape the product. So I think the first milestones, biggest milestones initially was getting the support from the community of people, from the people in the community that mattered the most. That was that was it. That was a they didn't shoot us down. They were very open minded. And they were very inspired and excited by our product. And and also co creating co creating it together with us to make it better. So that's where it started I suppose, yeah. Biggest milestones. Kurt: Bart has been on the podcast, you interviewed him. It was a podcast, so for the listeners, if you haven't listened to that, go listen to that one. Awesome. Yeah. So then kinda like moving forward, Runeasi just got a big funding round. Can you tell us a little bit about that? That's a huge deal, and congratulations. Kurt: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. It's it's what it will do is give us the oxygen to expand, and yet, especially on the product side, we just brought out a whole new redesign of the app. So for the, for a portion of our listeners that are also an easy user, there's just, yeah, there's a whole new app coming out that's gonna be streamlined and to improve the workflows and more reports and protocols. It's just make it as valuable as possible tool. But yeah, the Desmond round is partly for international expansion as well. So we see a lot of traction not only in Belgium but in 40 different countries. And in countries especially like The United States and also in Canada as well. And so, and then yeah, like I said, 40 countries. So what we wanna do is basically spread and grow our mission the company to keep on creating more value and supporting more a global community of sports and running physios. Kurt: As far as the future of Runeasi goes, you just kind of elaborated about it a little bit. But tell me, like what are you most excited about in the next year or two with Runeasi? Kurt: Most excited about is, yeah, all in the new product developments, I would say, for sure. The different ways we're expanding, the layers that we're adding to it. So we're not just, it's not just a running tool, not just jumping tool. It's You a clinical reasoning tool we wanna expand not only to performance screening but to real return to play protocols, integrating musculoskeletal testing into it, integrating qualitative visual analysis, integrating all these other aspects of, yeah, of how we screen and how we assess our athletes and our patients to make it just a really holistic tool as possible so that it covers all these blind spots and it covers all the, yeah, all the things that you need as a clinician that helps you just get your job done at the end of the day and makes it easier for you to do it. I think that's really, we're excited to expand the different modules and the capabilities of the product. And that's so on the product side. And then as I also transitioned in the team a bit towards helping grow the team, I just, yeah, I'm really enjoying growing the team. And the new people are coming and joining us. I receive people from all corners of the earth wanting to join us and be part of our mission. And whether it's in product and development or in, yeah, it's from the on the back end, on the front end of the app, Or it's on the commercial side who wants to help us, you know, customer development or business development or customer success management. It's just really exciting to see the talent that we're attracting and the people that are joining the team is really, yeah, it's really awesome. Kurt: I feel like I could talk to you for hours about all this stuff. I feel like we barely scratched the surface. You just brought up the jumping module, which we haven't even talked about, and here we are seventy minutes into this. So maybe we save that for another talk, but I guess as we close out, are there is there any advice you'd give to clinicians that are just interested in innovation, they're interested in tech? Yeah. What kind of advice would you give to them? Kurt: I would say go go go at it with an abundance mindset. Go at it as as how can this augment me? How can this how can I learn from the technology and vice versa? Yeah. See it as a as learning opportunities because it's all have when that one case in front of you, when you see that data kind of linking up and the patterns, it can be really, yeah, it can be really inspiring and motivating to not only you but to show that to your patients and your runners and your athlete can also, you know, really, yeah, inspire them. So I think just, you know, don't hesitate to think twice about going through, you're trying to use the technology. That's why, you know, we also have a very, very, we prioritize the onboarding and education side of this as well. We wanna reduce the friction as much as possible to adopting it and understanding how to implement it in practice. So yeah, just just go for it. Just just yeah, book a demo or book a call with one of our team teammates, and we'll see how it could best fit your business and your clinic. Kurt: Awesome. Love it. Kurt, where can people learn more about you? Kurt: About me? Yeah, you're welcome to connect on LinkedIn. I think I'm I'm most active there. Otherwise, through the website as well. You can go to runeasi.ai. And yeah. Or send me an email at kurt at runeasi dot Kurt: Awesome, Kurt. Well, appreciate your time. Thanks so much for coming on, and looking forward to talking again. Kurt: Thanks, Jimmy. Likewise. See you. Kurt: That's it for today on Jimmy: the Physio Insights podcast presented by Runeasi. Kurt: Would you like to share an interesting case, insight, or have a thought about the podcast? Comment below, Jimmy: and don't forget to follow us for more episodes.