Why Just Running Isn’t Enough: Breaking the Injury Cycle

Jimmy (0.00:06)

Welcome to the Physio Insights podcast presented by Runeasi. I’ll be your host, Dr. Jimmy Picard. I’m a physical therapist, running coach, and team member here at Runeasi. On this show, we have real conversations with leading experts, digging into how we recover from injuries, train smarter, and use data to better guide care. Whether you’re a clinician, coach, or an athlete, we’re here to explore what really matters in rehab and performance. Let’s dive in.

Jimmy (0.00:39)

All right, Jay, welcome to the podcast. How’s your day going? 

Jay: 

Thanks for having me, Jimmy. Good to be here. Of course. Yes. 

Jimmy: 

We’re talking a bit off air, but I mentioned that in my mind, you’re the OG running specialty PT. So everyone should know who you are. You’ve authored a few books. You got a product mobile board out there, but tell the tell the listeners who you are.

Jay:

Yeah, for sure. mean, name is Jay. I’ve been a PT for almost 25 years now, actually 25. It’s quite simple. Everything I’ve done has been born out of kind of frustration from things not working out well, right? I mean, I became a PT because I got garbage answers when I was a, you know, middle school and high school athlete. I got really garbage answers when I was in school about things that we were learning and how the significance was to carry over athletic populations. I got more garbage answers and I took more CME courses and everything else down the line, right? And so, you know, think that PT was very much like that in a box, right? It was like, rehab is way over here and athletes operate here, right? Like.

and I’m one of them and you’re one of them and we all want to make things relevant. And I just got sick and tired of like, you know, reading a research article and then seeing what’s out there in the lay media and like, you know, the three exercises every runner must do in runner’s world is like helpful, right? Like if three exercises solved all the problems for runners, we wouldn’t be here anymore, right? And I really just got into the aspect of like, anytime everything’s lots of times, things have not worked out, I try and break down the problem, break down the task. And I found that, you know, we as a entire healthcare system, we’re doing a really bad job of doing that running. And then we were doing a really bad job at making it relatable, right? Because again, research existed way over here on the left, and then we had people way over here on the right and like, nobody brought the ones and bits and the zeros from research lab over to like,

Jay (0.02:20)

humans. And, when I was at University of Virginia, I was in an amazing position. Dr. Casey Carrington came down from Harvard with a really big startup fund. And we actually established one of the better labs in the whole world with some pretty cool toys to look at running in a very objective way. I just, I mean, I always go back to the experience over and over again, because, you know, when you’ve got data, objective data on over 7,000 runners, plus you’ve done musculoskeletal analysis on over 7,000 runners.

 

and you put that together, a lot of stuff rises to the surface, right? Like those of you who’ve been in research studies or, know, authored them yourselves, there’s lots of nuances, right? And so when you’ve got that much resolution in front of you, a lot tends to come to the surface. And I’ve just tried to make it a big part of my career to kind of spread those messages over the, you know, over what I’ve done, whether it be from, you know, working with my own patients to teaching CME courses or teaching my own students. I teach at Oregon State University in the PT program here. So I’m just trying to give people context and insight. You know, I laugh like,

When I teach, always tell people like, I hope you don’t learn a whole lot, right? I hope you just learn to take all the stuff you know and kind of funnel it into it. It makes sense for your population you’re dealing with and how to make that job with what the demands of the sport are. And I really hope that’s kind of the message for everything, right? I just want to take what you already know and help you find a way to kind of funnel it down to something that makes sense for the sport. It makes sense for the athlete to get better results. That’s all we’re trying to do is get people smiling and hit PRs and just have a good life. 

 

Jimmy:  Yeah, 100%.

So at UVA, is that where you first started like really getting into the gait analysis stuff? Yeah, yeah. And that we didn’t overlap, but I was a student there. I think you had must have just left. When did you leave?

Jay:

I left in 11. 

 

Jimmy: 

Yeah. And that’s what must have been like a month apart or something. I was there as a student working with Eric Magrim. But yeah, I was fortunate enough during that time to go over to that lab and like see what it was like. And it was incredible. It was a huge facility.

everything state of the art. So you mentioned that while like doing all these analysis, things are rising to the top and you’re noticing kind of what sounded like consistent patterns. Is that right? 

 

Jay: 

You know, it’s like, these are coming out of line, right? Like for a long time back in the 80s, it was, you have to get miles per week all the time. That’s the number one predictor of running injuries. or, you know, don’t do too much too fast too soon. There’s some merit in that, right? Not being overloaded in terms of volume, but

 

Jay (0.04:40)

You know, I always go back, like I work with lots of, you know, recreational lead athletes across the world. And for every runner I see that does, you know, the too much, too fast, too soon kind of, you know, mistake, I see somebody else who’s very calculated, very intelligent, as a great coach, and they still get hurt. And they didn’t do, they didn’t do couch to marathon, right? Like they’re, the epitome of a great training plan, why they still get hurt. And people get defensive and say, Oh, is this that like,

 

Okay, hold on. Let’s take a step back and let’s start dropping some bombs here. Okay, so I find this interesting. This is like my thoughts on all this stuff have changed over the years too. And I look at what residents people would does it but I think here’s one the most interesting things out there. I think it’s gets into really like nails why we tend to see some so many overuse injuries endurance athletes, specifically in runners. If I said let’s optimize bone development, we do a series of stuff that’s not running.

 

If I said, let’s optimize 10 development, we do a series of stuff that’s not running. I sell it’s improved muscular strength and power. We do a series of stuff, which is not running. And the reality is people can argue with me as much as you want. don’t care. I’m not getting my feelings hurt. Okay. Bone loading is it doesn’t occur fast enough when you run to improve bone health. Tendon loading doesn’t occur slow enough running to improve tension density. And the mechanics of running aren’t enough to really optimize strength and power. So you’ve got to sequence some events where people don’t have great bones, don’t have good tendon density, don’t have good muscle strength, and now they’re loading volume on volume on volume on volume, right? And so they feel say, I just want to run, just want to run. I want you to run too, okay? You’re not showing up with a smart plan to optimize your path as a running athlete, right? And that’s the problem, right? Like we have to back and say,

 

how can we fix the person you’re putting into each run? it’s like, it makes me laugh. If we go back 15 years ago, we’re talking about why runners should do core strength. We have to beg runners to do core strength. Now they all least do something, right?

 

Jay (0.06:43)

where it’s just a plank, which is not my mind, a great exercise, but it’s something, you they’re doing some step, right? It’s like, I think the doors are finally open to communication. I’ve seen some things evolve on the big spectrum, which has blown my mind away as far as like, there’s a level of base competency with how we work with running athletes now, which is awesome, but it’s taken a long time to get there, you know, and it’s trying to help you reflect on the, you know, again, breaking the task down, helping you understand the task of running and not just saying, okay, now just do squats, right?

 

You don’t have to be complex, but you do have to be specific. I think that’s one of the things that, you know, as we look at society, so clicked on, you know, addicted to one click Instagram posts and stuff like that. You can make things cool and sexy fine, but don’t lose sight of the reality of you have to make the things you’re doing specific to your running athlete and not just specific to general fitness, right? Because you used to not want to be generally fit.

 

We can just put a bunch of general truths out there just fine. But if you said, hey, let’s really work with runners and meet the demands of runners, that’s not CrossFit, right? That’s not your high school gym lifting program. There’s nothing wrong with either of those two methodologies at all. That’s not specific to a sport of running.

 

So we need to look at again what that rate limiting step is. think that’s one of the, technology lets you dig one level deeper, right? You can’t see forces and tech let us, you know, really dig down into the how’s and why’s and what’s moving and how can we optimize that? And more importantly, can you make an impact on those things? Right. This isn’t just me. mean,

you know, there’s phenomenal researchers across the world who’ve really stepped up in the past decade or two. And it’s funny, I say not year or two, but decade or two, console, but you know, that really can can help synthesize things. And, know, you put the steps together from like, this study says this, this one says this, this one says this, but like, what’s the general consensus? And then how do you take all that general body of knowledge and make it apply to each person, right? Like research guys, your thought process doesn’t tell you how to treat your patient.

 

(0.08:37)

That’s where tech insight lets you find out a little bit more specifically where some imbalances are and when they occur and how much they are. And once you have a good framework on that, it’s not that hard to really intervene. Again, we tell our students and we all learn as clinicians ourselves to do a really good assessment. I think from a clinical side, lot of us are getting better at that. But from the run analysis side, what are you doing?

 

Like if you’re just sitting there looking at an iPad and drawing some lines, which are probably not very accurate, you know, it’s a great teaching tool, but probably not the best way to really help you get a deeper understanding of what’s 

 

Jimmy: 

Yeah, 100 percent. So you said a lot there. And I think like the first thing I want to pick up on is this idea of like trying to make the runner fit the guy, the person, the runner who just wants to run when all these other things are equally as important and trying to help convince them of this. It’s almost like a system problem where like Runners just want to run. And like you said, I do think there’s this trend nowadays where strength training is kind of cool. It’s OK for runners to strength train. We’re over this hump of like having to convince them you’re not going to get bulky and put on 20 pounds. But maybe what you’re saying is that we’re we’ve made that step. But maybe the specificity step is where we’re still kind of struggling. Would you is that right?

 

Jay: 

Yeah, totally. think most runners are open to the idea of like, there’s some other stuff I should be doing, right? It’s like, you know, people, you know, for all the time you say, okay, well, I run, what else do you do? And they’d say, well, I do yoga or strength training or Pilates or gyro tonics or insert thing here, right? Like, it was just something and that’s great. I’m glad you’re doing something else to become more diversified as far as movement skill. But when it comes down to it, like, I think that not just me, think our sport again, this is not I don’t have it. I don’t have a stake in this from an opinion piece. It’s like our sport demands that you show up with certain prerequisite of skill, right? Can I move well in our sport demands that we show up with tissues and repair for the task at hand. And if you do that, you’re going to have a lot of success as an athlete, right? And if you don’t do that, you’re going to either be sidelined half your season or you’re that runner who’s like just

 

(0.10:41)

barely speaking by the tight rope of death, right? Like I’m kind of this, but not that. You it’s like, you’re the runner who’s constantly obsessed with, wow, I don’t know I can try this one shoe today, it’s gonna throw me off or this one runner, your friend I don’t usually run with, they invite me for a run, I run 10 seconds slow per mile, I get hurt. Like you’re so one track, right? Like let’s expand your movement skill, let’s expand your tissue capacity and let’s see you put a better body into every run and you’ll do a whole heck of a lot better.

 

This comes in again, like, I always ask runners, like, what are you doing? What are you doing specifically to improve your bone health? Because just lifting heavy weights doesn’t do that. Just wearing a weighted vest doesn’t do this. That’s trendy, right? What do you specifically do and improve your tendons? So not just sets and rests, but how are you lifting? Spoiler alert, you have to lift incredibly slow to get tendons to respond. Two to three seconds on the concentric, two to three seconds on the eccentric to actually improve tendon density. You can do any exercise you want. You’re not lifting slow, it’s not gonna get the tendon to remodel.

 

Okay. And then for muscle strength and power, right? Like there’s times a year we look at more strength based stuff. There’s times you’re looking more powers, more periodization type approach. We blend it into where you are in season. But, you know, it’s not this linear model of, we just work on bones and just tendons and muscle. It’s like you’re constantly hitting all the bases throughout the season. And in a way that’s going to build up

the body without breaking down, you your, your will to live, right? We don’t want people exhausted. You have energy to run. And so it’s how much do we need to do to get positive responses and not overload your body, right? But we do want to overload tissues, of nudge it along in an upward direction. But I want to make sure you can still show up to run well every single session. And so it’s like, you know, find the balance points and then get into the fun part, right? Which is like,

talking to each person and say, what typical week look like for you, right? Are you a professional runner that does nothing else as run and nap? Okay. Or do you have three kids and two jobs? And like, what’s that life stress look like plugging all that knowledge is in your head, right? That you just want to throw it every single person and like make it adjustable for them. I guess where that specificity piece comes in, their specificity and the interventions we’re doing and specificity and how we apply that to someone’s lifestyle. Okay. If you give them a plan that works for one week, it’s not going to help them, right? Like these are

it’d be long term. 

 

Jimmy (0.12:53)

Yeah. And we know runners are we’re a little anal, we’re a little OCD. And if like you tell us we need a strength training, it doesn’t matter how busy life is. If you’re like, hey, you need to do this. They’re going to find a way and they’re just piling stuff on top. That or they’re just not going to listen to you and they’re not going to do it. So it’s it’s yeah. So. We want to be super specific. In your book, you do a great job kind of laying this out, that how do we train the bone? How do we train the tendon? So you just talked a little bit about the tendon. With bones, I’ve heard you talk about some pre-run plyometric. Is that right? 

 

Jay: 

Yeah. So, you know, this is interesting, right? Like it’s for a long time, we were told that, let me back up for a second real quick, because I think it’s important people understand this. You know, we were all been told that running lots of impact, build strong bones. Look at the research. Again, don’t get mad at me. Get mad at the papers. Running is…

barely more helpful for bone density than swimming and cycling.

 

Jimmy: 

 Which is crazy. 

 

Jay: 

Totally. Right? 

 

Jimmy: 

Like barely better. Okay. then at the same time, it kind of makes sense when we see it. So it’s like, cause but runners, you’re getting these decks of scans and you’re like, what? You were running with this? Like, yeah.

 

Jay: 

So, that speaks to the question, okay, well, if obviously swimming is not putting a big weight bearing strain on bones, Cycling is not putting a big weight bearing stress on bones. Tennen, wait, I thought that was putting a big weight bearing stress. But if you look at bone formation is constantly available between osteoblasts and osteoclasts to regulate bone health, right? And so what we have to do is we have to find out.

 

what’s the mechanism to upregulate bone building? There’s osteoblasts in my classes to kind of maintain homeostasis, but the shifting is a bone building way to improve bone density. And the rate limiting factor here comes into not amount of load, but the timing of load, right? So if you look at the research right now on bone health, if you’re a soccer player, let’s back up for a second. If you’re a runner in middle age, say you’re a middle-aged person who decided to kind of take up running, but you played D1.

 

(0.14:50)

soccer in college, you probably have excellent bones. Okay. And why? You did tons of acceleration, deceleration in multiple planes, right? And you have so much starting stopping. There’s a ton of really beneficial stress goes to bones to build really strong, resilient bones, right? And the cool thing is we do that when we’re in grade school and high school and those are like, let’s say early twenties, before 25, your bone health is like, standard deviation is well above the average person.

 

Okay. However, if you’re that person who started running a middle school and high school and college and you just ran and you wonder why you struggle with bone health issues over your time, you never took positive steps to build bone, right? Like, again, that just hasn’t happened. And again, let’s go back to the reason why to improve bone health, we need great action forces of over three and a half times body weight, which when you’re running there about two and a half, maybe three, some people, but usually two and a half times body weight. And they’re applied for about

 

0.15 to 0.3 seconds. Bone building to be effective, you have to apply those loads for less than 0.1 second per contact. Okay, so you can’t run that fast as you’re sprinting. The same contact time is 0.08 seconds. But again, that’s…

 

World champion 100 meter, right? So you’re probably not going to do that because you’re probably not as fast as he is. When we look now at how we do that, right, plyos have been talked about in great exercises to improve strength and power and they are, right? But they’re also a phenomenal pathway to improve bone health, right? So, I mean, let’s make this ridiculously simple. Like everyone out there, okay, you should be doing what I call curb jumps.

 

Everyone has a curb in front of their house.

Jimmy: 

You don’t have heard you talk about this and now like all my run, I coach half my business is coaching and they are all starting with this. least. Yeah. Go ahead, explain. 

 

Jay: 

Everyone has a curb, right? And so the thing is we’re going to use, we know that people can jump easier off both feet than single leg, right? So I try and make this as appropriate as possible because we have to get people to get off the ground stupidly fast. Okay. So what you do is go on up, go outside in front of a curb.

 

Jay (0.16:48)

Face the curb, you’re gonna put your left foot up on the curb and your right foot on the street. And what you’re gonna do is you’re going to drive down as hard as you possibly can. I tell my runners, pretend you’re not on a curb, you’re on glass and you wanna shatter the glass. You push in as hard as you possibly can, you bounce up in the air, you switch feet. So now your right foot’s gonna come down on the curb, left foot comes down the street, you come down and you explode, break the glass as you come down. And that’s how we do our jumps. Now here’s the thing.

 

Looking for a total of 40 jumps, not 40 together. Okay. No one can maintain contact times of lesson points. Second for 40 in a row. Maybe you’re doing four in a row, six in a row, five in a row. Take 15, 20 seconds rest. Doesn’t take any more time. This whole thing can be done in two minutes. Okay. But we do these 40 jumps and the key thing here is it has to be done before you run. Okay. There is a bone stimulation effect that occurs when you do it in the sequence.

 

about 40 jumps, less than 0.1 seconds of contact in the ground and done pre-run. After you run, we see this bone building modulation effect actually suppressed. Okay, so you can’t, if you want to do them for strength and power, you can do whatever you want as long as you’re not neuromuscular fatigue. But if you’re bone building, you have to do them pre-run, okay? And it takes two minutes. The old adage is, let’s warm up and then we do this other stuff. Stop. If you warm up first, you already suppressed this effect, so don’t do that.

 

Like I tell my athletes, if you don’t walk for a second, fine. But like put your shoes on, find a curb and go. 

 

Jimmy: 

Yeah, that’s been one of the hang ups I’ve gotten from runners is like, I need to warm up before I do this. Yeah. And so is this is this similar to that? I think it was one of like Stu Warden’s paper or something where he had that saying like bones get bored. This like what is it? I love this quote. It’s like bones find running boring. I’ll tell people it’s like my two year old, like he stops listening after one minute.

 

Yeah. And so you think like across the board, this is something like just runners should kind of adopt. Is that kind of how you feel? 

 

Jay: 

Yeah, I think it goes back to again, your background, right? Again, if you play multi, you if you play, look, don’t this is a whole change I can go off on. But, you know, I tell people a time like the worst thing you can do for your body is to start being a runner earlier in life.

 

(0.19:03)

build a bigger capacity. And that should be first and foremost. And we have to look at what e-sports looks like and we’re failing miserably in every aspect of this right now. But, I would say that if you come from a background, this has not been a priority for you, absolutely must do, right? Must make happen. And then, the other side is, you know, middle-aged adults, right? Like we start to think, oh, we’ll just keep going. And you only keep going if you keep going, you know? And so, you know, as we age, a lot of us stop moving fast and we stop doing all this other stuff. like the reality is like wearing your vest on a walk is not going to improve your bone health. I know it’s trending Instagram, but it’s not going to do the thing, right? I actually saw a paper come out just two weeks ago about this, said specifically a weighted vest didn’t respond, result in improved bone mineral density. you need to do the things. so, you know, if you’re, if you look, let’s be realistic. If you play D1 soccer and you’re 24 years old, you know, who taking up running later on in life, like the biggest rate limiting step probably isn’t your bone density, but there’s only a few hundred of those people out there every year, right? So for most of us, should definitely be, bones are important, right? Like you should be taking steps to preserve them. Yeah. 

 

Jimmy: 

So, all right. So we got the bone loading program. And then it seems to me like in my practice working with runners, would you agree with this? Like we’re seeing tendon injuries and bone injuries. are kind of the two main injuries. Totally.

Jay:  Yeah. The tendon side. Yeah. It’s interesting, right? Like it’s, it’s different, you know,

Carrie Lane is one of my great friends. She’s been a collegiate coach multiple places at UVA for a little while, the Nebraska and the Wyoming. She’s now the head coach for Under Armour. And she has this quote I love. She’s like, all running is is throwing a last gargoyle from joint to joint. And that’s like, nailed it. Like that’s, that’s all running is right now. But to do that, you get to put all that last gargoyle through very rigid levers, right, which are your bones, okay. And through

 

kind of pulleys, right, which are kind of like the muscle and tendon units, right? And so when you run, muscles don’t really have a lot of shortening and lengthening. They actually stay pretty much isometric. the work, because work is force through a distance, that mechanical change in length comes from tendon length, right? And you’re storing and releasing that elastic energy in the tendons. And that has to be applied through a very stable system, right? Meaning, you know, like

 

Jay (0.21:18)

For example, Achilles’ tenopathy, right? We have to have a very stable solid foundation in the foot because that Achilles tendon is going to store and release a whole bunch of work, but that’s going through a stable forefoot, midfoot, rearfoot, right? To be applied in a way, going to get our runner to move forward with control and good propulsion and not somebody who’s a wobbly mess, right?

 

It’s not just the foot, right? Like there’s a great paper from, it’s a while ago, it’s probably 10, 12 years old, but it looked at gait changes in people with or without achilles tendinopathy. And it wasn’t just like, oh, a rear foot calcaneal e-version change. It was things all way up to spine control, right? So it’s like, have a, I always tell my folks like, if you get a slingshot and you pull back on a slingshot to store elasticity, if that forearm is nice and stable, and you release it, you’ll hit your target. But if your forearm’s limp, you’re not going to your target, right? So you’ve got to have good control from a neuromuscular stability side to harness the elasticity. so when you get into tenopathy, I’m giving this long-winded answer here to say this, when get tenopathy, yes, you have to strengthen the tendon. Okay, you do. And we just talked about ways to do that. It’s pretty simple. Apply slow loads, two to three seconds on the concentric, two to three seconds on the eccentric. So you have to get the tissue, but you also have to fix the problem, okay? Movement imbalances,

 

creep in and they cause imbalances the way we move, the way we run. And now we’re loading a system, which is wildly unstable. know, quote I’ve been saying to all my runners is like, load the solution, don’t load the problem, right? 

 

Jimmy: 

yeah, I love this, this diagram in your book of the, like the block where it’s like the worker, like you get injured or you have this physical block, you go find a workaround, you fix it, then you still do this workaround. And it’s like, how do we fix it and get that, that path back? Yeah.

 

Jay: 

Yeah, improve your strategy, right? And so, you again, there’s rhetoric, right? It’s like a low tissue, low tissue. Yes, great. Low tissue. Okay. But don’t forget that you have to look at movement skill, right? I just taught a course, I teach a running mechanics block to our students every year. I just taught this the other day. And this is a great little thing to those of you who are resistant to looking at form changes and movement skill and say, this is garbage. Do me a favor, stand up and do a squat for me and do a quad dominant squat, meaning your knees are going to more forward and squat down. Okay. Great.

 

Jay (0.23:31)

and do three or four of those, then do me a favor, do a hip dominant squat. So squat more vertical shin, hips back, and do three or four of those. You’ll feel, one, I feel my quads working more, one, my poster chain working, right? Both those are squats. So for those of you who think that the way you do something is important, stop. Because you just showed yourself technique changes where forces go. Forces go somewhere, right? So if you’re someone who says running form doesn’t matter, stop it.

Like you’re not your bias is not helping your athletes. OK. Running form does matter. Yeah. 

 

Jimmy:

Because what’s going to happen, though, is you’re going to get those. this I’ve had a few of these these patients that are like the most challenging ones. And they’re telling they’re coming to you and they’re like, it just feels off on this side. It doesn’t feel right. And you’re sitting there and you’re like loading it up. You’re hammering it with strength.

Maybe you’re doing your drills and they’re just like six months later, it still feels off. There’s something off and it just like every time I hear that, I visualize that little like thing. It’s like, yes, how do we smooth that up? And I think that’s where like off air, I think you said you can’t measure what you don’t or you can’t see what you what was your site? What do you say? You measure. 

 

Jay: You can’t you can’t look at you can’t see forces. can’t see forces. 

 

Jimmy: That’s what it was. Yes. And so that’s where I think like the gait tech, some of the wearable technology, things like Runeasi where you can get a lens into that. I think every time I’ve heard that story of like, it feels off. I visually assess them. You do the slow motion thing. You’re like, dude, it looks pretty solid. But then you put some tech on them and all of a sudden your eyes are opened a little bit. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Jay: (0.25:14)

100%. Yeah. mean, you can see kinematics, right? You can see kinematics and range of motion in joints. You can see that with your eye, whether you’re your eye or an iPad or a Dartfish or whatever thing you like. Kinetics are basically looking at forces, right? And so you can’t visualize someone’s knee extensor moment.

 

how rapidly they control flex and bend the knee. You can’t visualize someone’s medial lateral oscillation of center of mass as they run. You can’t visualize how fast they put force down the ground, rate of force development, right? Like you need different tools. Okay. And so we look at what are those tools? Well, traditionally they’ve been force plates. Okay. Force plates, you don’t buy them at Target. Okay. You buy them at higher end shops and they cost between eight to $25,000. And typically you just get a force plate and you have to then have an engineer program the interface to actually read that data and make sense of it. And you have to have some

 

way to make that into something actual number, meaning clinicians have to understand those numbers and you have to have some real time feedback module to figure out how to do something with it. You just spent a lot of money.

 

Okay, so wearable tech has stepped in and it’s amazing, right? You can get things from one or two sensors and on the body in different tests and you can get a higher end insight into what you’re looking at. I’ll share it with you. We’re doing a study right now. Every year we have a different research project we do with our faculty. We pick a topic and look at. I’m actually doing a snowboarding study, but I think it’s interesting. We’re actually using running to look at

 

jump performance, right? So they have a jumping module now. We actually looking at the reactor strength index, which is basically a single leg hop. So you’re looking at how well they utilize basically looking at flight time versus contact time, which is looking at how well you harness elastic energy each each and every hop, right? So spring efficiency is that what you’re yeah. So basically, we’re trying to find out, you know, look like

 

(0.26:47)

Snowboarding is interesting because everybody has a of preferred stance, right? And then we have a switch stance where you’re on the opposite side, right? So a different leg first. And so we’re doing a study in elite slash professional snowboarders only because you have to get a jump switch well to do our study. So that’s why we did that. But, know, it’s interesting to me that you ask somebody, you’re right-handed or left-handed, people are pretty good at that, right? You ask somebody, you’re right-footed, left-footed and…

 

they’re kind of look around for a while and don’t really know or they typically think it’s the same side as their hand dominance, right? And we found that, found a bunch of things so far, people do a really bad job of objectifying which is their dominant leg and dominance meaning on being able to apply more force down to the ground, okay?

 

objectively dominant leg. And so we’re looking at how people, again, utilize power, Let’s bring that aspect to generate power. And then how does that play a role in their riding position? And then what’s the re-limiting aspect of performance? Is it more in their muscular capacity, right? That traditional model of we just have to get stronger, right? Or is it more the on-snow technique, right? And so we’re finding some interesting things as far as how things sort of correlate. And you couldn’t do that with your eye. You can’t do that with a stopwatch.

 

But you can do it with an IMU. IMU is inertial measurement unit, right? It allows you to capture data that you couldn’t otherwise see. Those of you may go, dude, stop talking about snowboarding. I work with runners. Why? Let’s make this really simple, really specific. Let’s say that you have a runner come in and you’re just using your eye or your smartphone to draw lines on screen. You’re trying to illustrate the point that one side is not as quick off the ground or has some imbalance wobbly, something you can see it’s very much different right side versus left side, right? And you want to find out how much this might be a running form problem and how much this might be, I just forget running. 

This person just can’t, they can’t spring off the ground as fast enough. Forget running, there’s even a hop, right? And so where do I start? Where do I intervene? Where’s my point of entry, right? Well, if you can put a device on them, it takes about three seconds. You just put a belt on and buckle it, okay? Have them jump for 10 seconds in the right leg, 10 seconds in the left leg.

 

Jay (0.28:51)

Okay. And then now you’ve got your RSI data and now you actually have run data and it’s right in front of you. Like you don’t have to read a paper. The results of your experiment, your end of one experiment, the only thing that matters is the subject in front of you. You have it in front of you. can find out where the limiting aspects of where this person needs to be, right? You may find that person’s amazingly symmetric, but we have a problem in form, right? Things are asymmetrical in form, but not in their muscular capacity. Go straight to your gate cues.

 

You don’t have to go back and load. Stop. 

You already have your answer in front of you versus somebody where you know what? We see a huge difference. Let’s say that left leg was 74 % deficient in putting out power compared to your right. Those of you go, that’s a lot. We found that much of an asymmetry in somebody who just won a gold medal at X Games. That old standard of why you have to get people to 85 % symmetry, the 90 % symmetry, then you can go back to sport. People are compensating all over the place.

 

Can you find those imbalances and you can’t see them? And like they’re that’s the same tech lets you do this on a scale that even two years ago we couldn’t do, you know, so it’s a pretty cool time to be alive.

 

Jimmy:  

Yeah. And so the way I hear you describe me is like it’s a way to like amplify your clinical reasoning. Totally. Yeah.

It’s not like a substitute for it. It’s like a piece of the puzzle for you. 

 

Jay: 

Yeah, but it’s a big piece of the puzzle. Those of you who said, I wonder you’re talking, you’re talking a patient in front of you, right? You’re in a room. OK, you’re like, wonder how this person modifies or changes or gate when I wonder how this happens. Put the sensor on him and do it. This is how simple it is. You basically have your patient come and see you at two thirty. Great. Get here at one fifteen.

 

Put the thing on, go run outside and whenever loop you want to for an hour, come back. Look at the data. You’ve got your answer in front of you. You want to look at jump performance. Do that. Like you can do all these things now.

 

Jimmy: (0.30:59) Yeah. Those are both two things that I love doing is like have a patient show up early for their appointment, put the belt on, go to their run. Now I got data. I can see what happens with fatigue. If they’re using their Garmin watch, we can pair it with that data and say, oh, you hit a hill at 20 minutes in and this is what happened downhill at 22. This is what happened. So now you’re, yeah, you’re not guessing anymore. 

 

And, then the, yeah, the, the newer ability to kind of assess the jumping and especially that reactive strength or the reactive single leg hopping, double leg hopping. I had a case recently with a 11 months post-op ACL patient who is two months into trying to get back to sport. And she was just.

 

struggling, pulling herself out of practice, put the belt on her, had a run. She scored an 88 and everything was perfect. Greens all over the place. I was not not expecting it. Then I did the explosive strength test or the explosive hop test, a squat jump and a counter movement jump. She crushed that too. I was like, oh, shit, she can run in a straight line. No problem. She can develop power. No problem. I had isokinetic testing data from her previous PT. Perfect.

 

I did single leg hopping. Boom. Everything fell apart. 

And it was so easy for me then to say, like, look, you’ve hammered strength training that like and I think a lot of like PTs nowadays are all about strength training and hammering that. And I think it’s like so easy to get caught up in that and to just the blinders on and say, just lift more weights. And I’m guilty. I’ve been guilty of that for sure. But like that, that one assessment has been able to like open my eyes a little bit and show me like, yeah, there’s this other there’s an objective way to measure this, to show me and to show the patient that this is what we need to focus on. It was frustrating for her because she was like, man, why haven’t I been doing this before? And I was like, well, here we are. You’ve crushed your rehab up to this point. Now it’s this last little box and let’s get rolling with that. Yeah. mean, 

Jay (0.33:20)

yeah, it’s again, like it’s insight, right? Let me say one thing real clear. I’m not just speaking just about a shill for run either or anything else. I’m unpaid. But I will say that I have lots of tech tools because it gives me better insight. I can do a better job when I have more pieces of puzzle in front of me, right? So we do a day after we do all of our education stuff, we do a day of just technology for runners with our PT students, right? And Runeasi had just sent me a system to kind of just check out and play with. And I laughed. I put this thing on one of our students, had him run for about five minutes. He came back and I said, what was your left side injury and how long ago was it? And he’s like, what? And I was like,

 

Yeah, I see something very clear and he’s like, what do you mean? And sure enough, he had an ACL tear at basically 10 months previously and his strength numbers looked really good. And he’s like, have you been doing? I’ve been doing lots of lifting and rehab, right? But his power numbers were horrible. Okay. This is looked at on the running seat sensibility impact duration. They were over 60 % asymmetric, right? And so again, we’re so focused on like strength and strength and strength and strength. That’s what we’re trying to do, make things specific. If I’m gonna take your time, right, and say, hey, I want to do these things, you know, a handful of times a week, like, let’s make it realistic, let’s make it actionable. And the cool thing about tech is, I can go back, I don’t have to read a research paper, you can come back in in a few weeks or months and I can retest this and things should move this way, right? Or where you want them to. And you can assess that and call your own bluff and bias, right? We’ve all got them, you know? You think, you see this thing? Is it really there or not, right? And so, you know, I tell people all the time, like,

 

If you’re somebody who’s saying, kind of see this little wiggle thing you do on this right side, like that’s not helpful. Okay. Hey, you have an imbalance of blank percent at this phase of gait and like that’s helpful. Right. So, you know, being able to be more objective about the way you approach anything, right. Gives you more answers to help your patients. That’s what we’re trying to do is to just to get people to sort of take action and oversight of the data and making something that’s real world.

Jimmy (0.35:23)

So I guess I’ve been a PT for half the time you’ve been a PT, but I’ve seen like a swing from like manual therapy, anti-manual therapy, maybe a little bit in the middle now, obsession with form. And then now I feel like I see people like, like you’re saying, like not even looking at form or not doing assessments of or devaluing it in a way. Can you speak on that? 

 

Jay: 

Yeah, I said both. You have two extraordinarily good points. We both of them. One is a manual therapy piece and the other one is the form piece. I said both those. It’s a really important talk about. So, now therapy piece. People ask me all the time, hey, I want to become this running guru too. Be there with this stuff. What running courses do I take? And they’re kind of newer in the profession. like, get really damn good at being an orthopedic manual therapist. Okay. And here’s why. I’m not going to sit here and debate the points of dry needling versus manipulation versus all you’re doing is remember David Letterman, like he had this skit called Stupid Human Tricks, right? That’s why I call this stuff. It’s like ways to decrease neuromodular tone. Okay. Insert technique or thing here, right?

 

Those are needed things sometimes, right? You’ve got people come in, you’ve got high tone and locked up and compensations, and all you’re doing is help our nervous system shut down so you can access range they’ve got. And that’s a part of things I use to get people into a more advantageous environment to train skill and train capacity. So it’s not like mental therapy or exercise. Like you’re an idiot if you’re asking that question. Like how do I use manual therapy?

 

to get my patients into a better environment, to get better outcomes out of their skill and tissue loading program. That’s an intelligent conversation to have. 

 

Jimmy: 

OK, so I think that we need to look at that continuum. Yeah. So do you feel like it needs, like when I first graduated in, I think, UVA, actually, when I was there in the VOMTI. I don’t know if, is VOMTI still around? Yeah. Yeah. Like how specific, I know we’re going off on a tangent here. I’m just curious of your thoughts because I haven’t heard you talk about this.?

How specific do you think we need to be with our manual therapy? Do you think it’s like, yeah, very specific or is this more of like, could it be used in a very general way to get patients by and build rapport to calm the nervous system down just by like having a good conversation while you’re doing something with patients.

 

Jay (0.37:18)

Yeah, I would say, you know, I can’t speak to how every single person out there approaches their patients. I can just offer this. mean, I use a lot of mental therapy. not like manipulating somebody C1, C2 every session. Okay. But how specific? I mean, I think you need to be incredibly good at foot and ankle because the vast majority of clinicians have no idea where the calcaneus is, let alone second cuneiform. Okay. You need to be pretty good with spine, right? Because spine impacts how pelvic function and hip function is going to react. And even with thoracic spine.

 

I think you’d be really darn good too, because again, a lot of counter rotation issues we see throws a lot of asymmetry in terms of mediolateral force instability. So basically the whole runner shifting side to side. And so, you know, a big stick of looking at the free moment, which is this line of rotational force that comes up from the ground. And you have to go to twist and adapt around that to get your foot to twist down on the ground, your hips twist in and out, your spine twist in and out, right? And so if you’ve got motion blocks on that system, you have to address those. nobody, no exercise is going to do that right now.

 

The exercise might work in synchrony, right to restore control and coordination. But if you’ve got somebody who’s, you know, guarded or high tone or whatever, there’s not a line one side to move, you know, and you say, I’m gonna load this like their nervous systems like, dude, no, like, yeah. And so that main therapy piece is something you’re using to sort of unwind some of those tendencies and behaviors. I am a very heavily I would say the best tool I’ve got still my hands, right? Like, and that we can kind of like,

 

Jimmy:

Bring back that image of I’m to have to like share it here, but the image of like the block, right? It’s like that for you. It sounds like that is a way to remove that block or that limitation. And then you’re using exercise or running or form or whatever to restore the path. 

 

Jay: 

You said that even better than I did. Thank you. 

 

Jimmy (0.39:11) 

All right. So then let’s like circle back to form and how form fits in there.

 

Jay: 

Right. Okay. So this is the thing I’d say, you know, right, like a new buzzy thing comes out, it’s flashing glittery, and then like, it fails and the public goes, all that stuff is dumb, right? Like we were told that wearable tech is going to save running and Garmin came out and gave you contact time. And what else did they give you? Yeah, it’s like, not helpful. Okay. And so Ronald said, wearable tech is stupid.

 

Unfortunate, right? But that’s what happened. Okay. And then clinicians, you know, we were looking, we were told wearable tech is coming out. I’m sure with you, I had a wearable tech company over 15 years ago, right? And we had great software and great outwears, but the hardware was garbage. We abandoned it and left and moved on. Right? So it’s like, we were promised this ultimate thing coming that was going to help us do our job, and it didn’t, it didn’t work out very well. So we said, okay, this is stupid. So you look at gate queues, right? We were all told that gate queues are going to save the world. And you have to remember,

 

I have great slide to teach with. I have her running, right? And I say, open up your stride. That’s all I told her. And that cue is intended to teach her to push more out the backside, right? Do a good job of propulsion. If you look at her video, A and B, the only thing she did when I gave her that cue was hyperextend her lumbar spine, increase her pelvic tilt, okay? Because the way for her to… quote, open up her stride to get more propulsion on the backside was to compensate her spine and pelvis position. Now it’s not what I wanted, but it’s all she knew how to do. Okay, and so what I’ve found is clinicians have these ideas for gait cues, but you’re sending mixed messages, right? Like you’re basically having them do these two or three or four or five exercises or whatever, and you’re giving them these cues that like are off like somewhere else, right? Like your cues should mimic your exercises,

 

Your exercises should mimic what you want. I tell my therapist all the time, stop asking me what’s the best exercise for runners. I don’t know, I don’t care. your runners don’t care if you’re going to exercise, okay? They care if they can maintain their possible integrity.

 

Jay (0.41:16)

They care if they can push a leg back behind without compensating and breaking out of their form for mile after mile, right? They care about their form. your cues should mimic where your runner is at point of entry, right? And they’re constantly evolving. So the message and the things they’re feeling and the skill they’re learning from moving it through exercise is the same message you’re getting in your cues and vice versa. So you’re giving people a message that can make sense because running form is not, know, those are down your central pattern generators. They’re entrenched, right? And so you have to look at

does a person have the ability to move? So if they don’t, get your manual therapy tools out your hands, go back and unblock those blocks, Retrain the strategy and use cues to reinforce things that will creep into their running because running happens fast. And so I think that’s where a lot of people have gotten frustrated running cues and say they don’t work because you’re giving cues well-intended that your patient doesn’t know how to act on, right? And so you have to, again, you want to…tell our patients one or two messages. Those messages might be, need to do a better job about maintaining sagittal plane control of your spine and pelvis while doing a better job about getting a rotation for your thoracic spine. Great. Then give them tasks to mimic that pattern, help them feel the difference between where they were and where they’re going, and give them cues when they’re running that meet that same message. Then you see success, right? so, you know, if I could, quick thing here.

 

When I look at, are we making a difference, right? Like, I hope I’m making a difference with my own athletes. I hope you’re making a difference with your athletes, but like, are we making a difference in the world stage? And I think that this past Olympic cycle was amazing for me because when I watched prior to this Olympic Games, watched the last 200, 400, 600, 800 meters of whatever race was going on, and what you saw come across the finish line was a really fast person who was a biomechanical nightmare, okay?

 

their form just fell apart. If you look at them from, let’s say, the first quarter race to the last quarter race, they’re two different people. Okay. That didn’t happen this year. Yeah. I saw, I was at Olympic trials almost every day. I saw three American runners break form three times the entire Olympic trials. That’s it. Why? Because people are finally doing this stuff. Aeropets are looking at it with a trained eye. Athletes are paying attention to it. Like we’re finally getting through.

 

Jay (0.43:39)

people are coming across our last 200, 400 meter, wherever they’re closing with the same person that went out fresh. So I go back to like, I always say, are you training your athlete for the entire demands or event? If your athlete’s form is breaking down, everybody gets tired, right? Prepare for it. Like figure out what that needs to be, whether it’s improving capacity or improving skill or just awareness, right? Some learners may just, hey, give me two things to think about. That might be enough. It goes back to cues, but like,you got to deliver that consistent message. And if you do that, people look really good, right? And I think we lose sight of that. Like that’s the goal is that running needs to look great.

 

Jimmy: 

 Nice. Yeah. Who do you think like, yeah, in the Olympic trials or in the Olympics, who do you think did that the best? Just curious. 

 

Jay: 

Oh man, I’m not going to single anybody out. There are a lot of people who do pretty good. I’m so I’m going tell you who fell apart. They weren’t my athletes.

I tell you what, though, like I have I’m not going to call her out because I don’t work with her, by the way. But I was there and of her first prelim, I said she’s going to Paris and our friends like, oh, whatever. And she went to Paris. Right. Just because you could tell, like she’s holding her form together throughout her event and how she looked or what’s that expression like the lion crouching about his pounds? She looked so impeccably just consistent from.

 

You know, after the first eight strides out the block, she looked amazing. I could tell she was like right a whole back and she had a little surge in semis. But yeah, come final. It’s like finals like that’s I was expecting to see. Like, you you can just tell she’s worked on these things. Right. And I think it goes back to again, like you prepare for the whole demand of a thing you’re trying to do. Yeah. Where did this pass? Like I’m.

 

hearing you talk with a lot of passion about just like running in general. Where did that come from? I don’t know, man. I’m half Sicilian, so who knows? I probably just get worked up on everything. OK, nice. 

 

Jimmy: 

You love it. I can hear it in you. you’re like, guess maybe it goes back to what you said at the opening of this. And then it’s just like built out of frustration or whatever. you’re.

 

Jay: 

 Don’t know, man. I just go back to the other day. Like, I don’t care about nobody cares about me. Right. They care about athletes before me. It’s like, you if I can help athletes to get where they want to go, like then I’m happy, right? Like, don’t care how I feel about something. It all goes back to, think the passion goes back to if people are going to work hard, right? Like, I better have good things to tell them for sure, but they’re going to work really hard. And I want great things for people who are to work hard. And I love to see people have success. 

 

Jimmy (0.45:52)

So you kind of see your role as like a guide, like you’re like the Yoda, you’re kind of like helping. like a cog in a wheel, man. But hopefully.

 

Jay: 

I’m not saving the world, but I mean, no, you’re a cog in the wheel, but you got to be there. as I tell everybody, here’s the reality. Running coaches don’t get the biomechanical education side we get. Strength and conditioning coaches get the strength and conditioning process, but they don’t understand the sports as well as some of us do. And so you look at where we fall, we always talk about takes a village and we have to work together.

you, someone else may have better answers than you, but oftentimes as a PT, you’re kind of like case manager, right? Like if there’s somebody who’s better at the strength and conditioning side, fine use them great, right? Like, but don’t just think all we have to do is load the tissues and that’s it, right? Like the skill thing still matters, right? The form assessment matters and coaches are more open to this now, right? But some of them are still like, just run like fine. Have those discussions, right? If you have a success story from somebody you work with, their team say, Hey,

 

Can I just kind tell you sort of what we did? Like, I’m not looking at market, I just want to help you figure out what helped Sally do a better job, right? Like, because I want to give you the best runners I can for your team. That’s it, right? And like, based upon we found, you know, I saw this imbalance with Sally, I also see the same things with like the majority of runners I see. Would it be possible for us to work together if you told me, hey, I’ve got 10 minutes, three times a week before practice to work on these three things? I give you three little drills to work on your athletes.

 

that opens the door, right? And you’re just out there and say, hey, I just want to altruistically help, right? That’s it. I think that like, get that discussion, start your local community because, you know, coaches don’t come to you unless things go south, right? And I think that if you can stay on the forefront of that, it’s like, hey, let’s help your athletes do well from day one. Like let’s give them the tools you need to succeed. Cause coaches are great with volume intensity and all that kind of stuff, but This isn’t their real house. Right. And don’t. Yeah. 

 

Jimmy (0.48:03)

Maybe don’t assume that they’re getting it from somewhere because they’re probably not. You know, I think like I ran at a D1 school and our strength training days was like, go do like five pound bench presses and like literally it was like, don’t use your legs. Don’t do pie. You need to save those for your friend. And it’s like, I mean, that was however, that was.

15, 20 years ago, but I like seeing the same thing. 

 

Jay: Yeah. Yeah. If it makes me feel better, I’ve been consulted by a lot of political programs across the world. Amazing. That’s good. No, but it’s just like, again, people get in a rut, right? And the people there, the ones making the policies, and sometimes you have to look at like, what are we missing? And so it’s just, I’m not here to say my own praises, but I’m just saying like, there’s a path for all of us to act locally, regionally, nationally, et cetera. And I think that, again, like opening doors that collaborative teamwork and just showing we’re all doing, know, people are like, what do do about this? You keep anything secret? I’m no, I’m gonna show you exactly what- Yeah, amazing. Somebody reached out like, what would you use for progression? I’m like, yeah, this is like, the stuff in my book is exactly what I use. I’m not hiding anything. I got nothing. It’s there. And that’s the way I’ve always operated. It’s like, give people all tools to succeed. If they need you, they’ll come find you. But like, it’s real simple, you know, just try and help people.

I don’t just, yeah, the passion comes from helping people do whatever they want to do. 

 

Jimmy: 

Yeah, so I guess a question I’m just curious about. So whatever it was, 15 years ago, you’re at UVA with this massive clinic. And seeing how things have evolved, you did the wearable tech thing back in the day. And then seeing things evolve to something as simple as the Runeasi sensor, what are your thoughts on that progress? Do you see the data that we’re getting from a single sensor or some of the other tech out there? is just as useful as the big gate labs that you’ve worked in? 

 

Jay (0.50:15)

Yeah. I mean, think it’s certainly not. There’s two things here. So you’re saying is a single, is a sacral mounted IMU going to give you all the things you get from from, you know, a 

 

Jimmy: 

Let’s say like clinically, like, is it giving us the things that you’re, or is there something missing from it? Maybe as a, how do you feel about it? 

 

Jay: 

Yeah, I’ll say this. So is accurate in the high end is, is a gate lab? No, but here’s the thing. Runners don’t just run in the gate lab.

 

they run outside on different surfaces and uphills and downhills and cambers and all these things that aren’t in a lab, okay, any lab, right? So one, it makes things real world, which is the most important thing, okay? And two, it’s quick, right? When somebody comes in a lab, it takes a half hour to put markers on, calibrate the system, I need an engineer to go ahead and pull and process a data, it takes 45 minutes. It’s not sustainable, right? There are…

 

Two other labs that I know in the US right now are operating at the level I was before. And they’re great. They’re awesome, right? Not blowing anything. If you want to dwindle down the most specific thing possible, then yeah, there’s a time and a place for that. But that’s overkill for what most people need, right? And think that changing things to where, I’m actually the gold standard is wearable tech, but a widely available option is wearable tech.

 

This is awesome. mean, I’ve always said, and it’s funny, I remember back very vividly, we had this great lab. was like, we were getting tons of headlines and just, this guy came one time and goes, how long until all this is on your iPhone? And I remember I laughed. was like, do you have any clue how awesome this place is? You think it’s on your phone? And I’m like, wait, he’s right. You need to take things outside, right?

Get an environment, meet our athletes where they’re at, and that’s what wearable tech allows us to do, right? And I think it’s awesome. From a passion standpoint, I couldn’t be any more excited that clinicians now have objective tools to measure things they can’t see, because that’s part of what we have to understand for running. And I think that it’s awesome that we’re, you what does Honda be alive, right? We’ve got tools, let us do this stuff. you know, say, better information into your brain means you can do better outcomes, right? And so running isn’t telling you how to treat your patients, no tech.

 

tool is, right? People are saying, what’s the thing for overstriding? There’s no metric for overstride, right? If you understand the data and you understand the person’s body, you can figure out why they’re doing that. And more importantly, you can improve things. And so I just said something that’s probably very loaded for a of people out there. So, but when you start playing with tech tools, you start going, oh, this is really what this data point means. And this is how it works with this one. And wow.

 

JAy (0.52:32)

I can measure their jumps, but this isn’t just telling me RSI data, it’s also telling me how unstable their are as their jumps. So, huh, now I can like instabil-

 

There’s all these rate limiting steps to build each other. And I think you’ll be pretty blown away by the resolution you can get from one sacred modded IMU. know, system, system, again, I challenge people all the time, give me a reason why you’re not using wearable tech with your athletes. Not just running with all your athletes. Like you should be doing something to assess with wearable tech and something to give people feedback on performance. Right. So instead of just saying, do 30 reps this, do 30 reps well.

 

And here’s feedback on how you’re maintaining public stability as you’re moving and doing these things. Figure out ways to use your phone, right? Just little things like that to give people feedback during exercise. Find ways to integrate that into what you found out from your assessment. Learn to use better things to ratchet up your assessment and ratchet up your feedback. I love it, yeah. So I was going to ask you to kind of wrap things up by giving the clinicians one piece of advice. And I think you just did a really good job there.

 

Jimmy: 

Yeah, just, you know, again, like, I think that we’ve gotten into a mindset where we’re so, you know, looking for research on new things, right, looking for outcomes data?

Jay: 

And again, I just read it said before, like, research guides your thought process, but doesn’t say as long as your patient, right. And so if you some of you have read a study like, wow, I I would have had my patient in that study kind of like, you can do that now.

 

Right. Like that’s what tech lets you do. It lets you call your bluff, take your biases, throw them aside and say, what’s really happening and where is that limiting step? And it doesn’t take a long time. It’s very specific. It’s pretty damn accurate. And it’ll transform the way you work with athletes. And that’s what we’re looking to do is get better outcomes. 

 

Jimmy (0.54:30)

Yeah. People helping people. we’re trying to. I wonder. You see a lot of people who don’t fit like they can. They get to 90 percent. They don’t get to 100 percent. And maybe this like

the as tech gets better and better and we’re using it more, maybe we’re able to like see that, yeah, you only got to 90 % and now we’re not letting people go until they’re 100%. 

 

Jay: Yep. 

 

Jimmy: 

Yeah. Awesome. All right, Jay. Well, I think that was.

That was really good. Thank you for your time. Where can people hear or learn more about you? You got two books out there. Where would you point people?

Jay: 

Yeah. You can pretty much, if you just go to the Mobo board Instagram page, I probably put the most stuff out there these days. I have a blog called anathletesbody.com. I don’t put a whole lot out there, but there’s some information on the Mobo Instagram, is mobo.board Instagram and also on the Mobo board website. have some articles on there, which are pretty interesting too.

 

Here’s somebody who is on the nerdier side. You want more things. There was a bunch of articles I wrote long time ago, but it’s still pretty darn important on the anathletesbody.com. So, we’ve got some things there. Yeah. And definitely check out the books. I think I have the original Anatomy for Runners. Actually, you know what? I do not have that book. do you know why? I was a student and my clinical instructor was like, can I borrow that book? I never got it back.

 

Go threaten them, tell them to pull their CC status if you don’t get it back. Yeah, right. So yeah, check out definitely the latest edition of the Running We’re Rewired book. Thanks. Appreciate it. Really good book. Like Jay said in the talk, like the progressions of his exercises are in there. How to load bone, how to load tendon, all spelled out in there. Yeah. Awesome. All right, Appreciate your time. Thank you so much. Thank you. That’s it for today on the Physio Insights podcast.

 

Presented by Runeasi would you like to share an interesting case insight or have a thought about the podcast? Comment below and don’t forget to follow us for more episodes!